New Regulation Proposals for SR Fly Zones

[shotnoyz]

http://www.losafishing.com/

If they attempt to eliminate split shot on leaders, I think it will be time for class action suit, letters to the governor and state legislators, etc.

[Reelscreamer]

Save your $25.00, if you see on that boring other site they had a survey.. Say what you want but all that will get passed on to DEC is what the "higher ups" want in the fishery... :blah: :blah:

[Browntrout5]

They want traditional fly casting in the FZ's? That should be amusing to watch 50 guys in unison trying to double haul cast.

If they want something to be traditional. Why dont they stock the traditional species of fish that inhabited that river instead of non native species. Why dont they release the water traditionally instead of being manipulated by a dam? Why cant they have a traditional natural fish population instead of a manipulated hatchery quota. It just all seems contradictory to want something traditional when everything else isnt. There is nothing traditional about the Salmon River anymore. The river and its fishery has been manipulated so many times and will continue to be.

Hey if they want to make FZ's traditional, I hope they can carve a section of the river out for the float fishermen too. Thats if they consider float fishing traditional :rolleyes:

[FISHON!]

http://www.losafishing.com/

If they attempt to eliminate split shot on leaders, I think it will be time for class action suit, letters to the governor and state legislators, etc.


if you read what is written, they arent trying to eliminate spilt shot..... They are trying to eliminate running lines and slinkies/pencil lead.

[shotnoyz]

http://www.fishusa.com/Discussion2/viewthread.asp?page=1&pagesize=40&forum=AMB_AP329826884&id=24753

You mean... this one?

[shotnoyz]

if you read what is written, they arent trying to eliminate spilt shot..... They are trying to eliminate running lines and slinkies/pencil lead.

I see language in that document that is ambiguous, leaving open a regulation that would eliminate bottom bouncing. Look, that's where the fish are most of the time -- on the bottom. To think otherwise is simply ignorant. To get down there you need to sink the line. A good way of doing that is to add a bit of heavy metal. Now, some people add a lot of heavy metal and you can hear quite easily that they are chucking globs of the stuff. But bottom bouncing can be done with two or three b or bb shots beneath an idiot (indicator), or with a 7 or 5 shot, and in the heaviest flows, with a 3 shot four feet from a nymph.

Last fall I caught four big steelies one right after the other on light weight while they were in transition. They were all different fish, for I learned their names as I revived and released them.

Some of the discussion on those sites posted above degenerates into arrogant pontification about learning new techniques. They can can take that crap and shove it. What these guys seem to want is their own river where they can chase fish three hundred yards before breaking them off in swift water. Maybe they should take up running.

[forgiven1]

"Essentially DEC wants to have a situation where the angler has to make a FLY cast with what ever configuration they are fishing with so the transfer of energy is between the rod and fly line, not cast/lobbed by the added weight."

I agree with the above statement. That being said, any new regulation must lack ambiguity and should be easy to enforce, as well as truly enforced.....or why bother with it at all.

I would like to see the days of pitching slinkies gone up there. Too many of the fish I have seen are PULLED in backward or sideways with that method being used. I cringe when I see trout hauled in like that.

[Ditchrat]

I dont understand something.

<DT> <DT>Salmon River <DD>Proposal: Allowable fishing tackle in the special regulations fly fishing catch and release (C/R) areas on the Salmon River in Oswego County. <DD>Proposal Description: Require that the weight of the fly line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly or supplemental weight carrying the line while casting and require that the fly line (non-backing) be at least 20 feet in length. Floating and sinking fly lines are allowed as are combination floating/sinking fly lines such as a sink-tip. Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed. <DD>Rationale for Proposal: Use of small diameter “running lines” in the fly fishing areas has resulted in many anglers using supplamental weight as the primary means of propelling the fly while casting. This technique is more akin to drift fishing with monofilament line than to traditional fly fishing and results in overcrowding, and generally impedes the traditional fly fishing activities that these areas were originally intended to provide.</DD><DT></DT>This is the proposal the DEC put forth. Please note it says Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed. .

Ok now LOSA summary seems to not include this portion or the proposal.

3). No added weight in the Upper and Lower fly zone year round, EXCEPT, Weighted flies, sink tip lines or looped in sink tips. Use or running line or low weight level line (Non tapered) is not allowed. Level or running line is allowed if a shooting head or at last 20 feet is attached tot he front end. Essentially DEC wants to have a situation where the angler has to make a FLY cast with what ever configuration they are fishing with so the transfer of energy is between the rod and fly line, not cast/lobbed by the added weight. This reg I think needs some work. They've used the words "Traditional". But the definition of fly fishing traditional is truly very broad. Anglers have been adding some kind of weight to a floating fly line and leader since the dawn of fly fishing. The use of sinking lines and sinking tips and weighted flies might not be any less traditional then a simple tapered floating line and leader. The other problem I see with this reg is that it skews the technique of Indicator fishing that is more of a vertical presentation, very deadly....and not a technique that fouls hooks fish very often This is where an angler will add some shot just below the float or indicator before the fly....and true nymphing ,. . I guess this could be achieved with a small section of lead core, but we'd have to think about it. We are hearing all kinds of rattling on this where some folks want it NO weight added at all.


So how did this change in proposal happen? Did the DEC ask the public for their opinions and lay out their proposal, then back door the public by changing the proposal at the meeting? Or has LOSA just missed something in thier summery? OR is there a possiblity I missed?

[mohawkriverdan]

How can three ounces of splitshot tied onto a running line and FLUNG across the river be considered fly fishing? .....Because the rod says Sage, Or because you are useing a fly reel? That style of fishing is just a way of, NOT flyfishing in the flyfishing zone. It is more like spin casting than anything.
Thats why the DEC is trying to FIX the regs. I say as long as you can roll cast it you should be able to fish it. Word it just like that.

[Flythrower]

How can three ounces of splitshot tied onto a running line and FLUNG across the river be considered fly fishing? .....Because the rod says Sage, Or because you are useing a fly reel? That style of fishing is just a way of, NOT flyfishing in the flyfishing zone. It is more like spin casting than anything.
Thats why the DEC is trying to FIX the regs. I say as long as you can roll cast it you should be able to fish it. Word it just like that.

I agree!!!!..Make it a true flyfishing area!!

[JeffL]

Flyfishing? whats that? :blah:

[Lil Salmon]

I agree in part with regulating the lead thing in the FZs, but not weight entirely...

I still think the biggest problem is just too many damn people during the busy seasons... its a damn zoo sometimes. How anyone can even call that flyfishing is beyond me...

The regulation on - 'X' amount of eggs on a person at one time - is just plain stupid. Talk about over-regulating. Spend the time getting the lake to 1 steelhead instead of continuing to put 100s of regs on the guys actually helping make the fishery better.

Just my 2 cents.

-Lil'

[Craydaddy]

The regulation on - 'X' amount of eggs on a person at one time - is just plain stupid. Talk about over-regulating. Spend the time getting the lake to 1 steelhead instead of continuing to put 100s of regs on the guys actually helping make the fishery better.



Nice!! I agree with you. What about the guys that use Skein for salmon? One salmon has a huge amount of eggs and I see guys go through that stuff real fast. Amount of Eggs on the creek is dumb and unnecessary.

As for the fly zones, make them a parking lot.

My 2 cents

[Ditchrat]

The regulation on - 'X' amount of eggs on a person at one time - is just plain stupid. Talk about over-regulating. Spend the time getting the lake to 1 steelhead instead of continuing to put 100s of regs on the guys actually helping make the fishery better.

Just my 2 cents.

-Lil'

Do you have any idea of how many fish are being stripped and/or killed just so people can have gallons of eggs on hand so they can chum up fish? I suspect it is just a matter of prospective, and you have yet to be in a position to be sickened at gallons of BT eggs going in a stream to catch more BT just to strip them for eggs to chum. Eggs for bait are fine but excessive harvesting in greedy.

Nothing for nothing but people are abusing the fishery and this seems the only way to stop it. I would hate to not be able to chum a little bit here and there, but if I cant becuase they need laws to protect the fishery so be it.

Maybe they just need to limit it to using only salmon eggs.

[forgiven1]

How can three ounces of splitshot tied onto a running line and FLUNG across the river be considered fly fishing? .....Because the rod says Sage, Or because you are useing a fly reel? That style of fishing is just a way of, NOT flyfishing in the flyfishing zone. It is more like spin casting than anything.
Thats why the DEC is trying to FIX the regs. I say as long as you can roll cast it you should be able to fish it. Word it just like that.

Good point on the roll casting deal....

[9 wt]

There is nothing untraditional about adding weight.

[Craydaddy]

Maybe they just need to limit it to using only salmon eggs.

I want to see how they would regulate that! :bigeek:

[Lil Salmon]

The egg rule is unnecessary. Because regardless of the rules that would be put into place... the guys that are currently breaking them will still be doing it and the only people you hurt are the fellas that are following the regs... They are coming dangerously close to over-regulating. And in my opinion this goes over the edge.

Greedy is just that.. being greedy... don't make stupid regs to make up for a lack of education.. crackdown and educate these guys into the harm they are doing instead... making unnecessary regs is just lazy.

Like I stated previously. You want to continue to help mend the fishery... crack down on the lake and make them follow the 1 steelhead limit. They are too scared to challenge them even though that is what SHOULD be done. So instead, they are choosing to try and over-regulate the people who have helped and sacrificed the most to bring the steelhead fishery back to where it was. I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. It just looks like a state organization scared of the Lake buracracy.

[forgiven1]

There is nothing untraditional about adding weight.

True, I personally will add weight as needed to get my fly down. I feel that if it is so much weight that a person can't fly cast, one must ask the question whether it is actually flyfishing at that point.

[Ditchrat]

The egg rule is unnecessary. Because regardless of the rules that would be put into place... the guys that are currently breaking them will still be doing it and the only people you hurt are the fellas that are following the regs... They are coming dangerously close to over-regulating. And in my opinion this goes over the edge.

Greedy is just that.. being greedy... don't make stupid regs to make up for a lack of education.. crackdown and educate these guys into the harm they are doing instead... making unnecessary regs is just lazy.
.


Agreed, but how do you deal with the current problem?

Lets face it, neither you or me, or the majority of the population is going to kill someone, but murder still needs to be against the law

[Ditchrat]

I want to see how they would regulate that! :bigeek:


Dunno, but it wouldnt be hard to start buying eggs and skien from fish cleaning stations

[mohawkriverdan]

Like I stated previously. You want to continue to help mend the fishery... crack down on the lake and make them follow the 1 steelhead limit. They are too scared to challenge them even though that is what SHOULD be done. So instead, they are choosing to try and over-regulate the people who have helped and sacrificed the most to bring the steelhead fishery back to where it was. I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. It just looks like a state organization scared of the Lake buracracy.


Theres a lot of "You"s ,"they"s and even a "what SHOULD be done" in that last statement.

So...... Like what are YOU doing about it?

[Lil Salmon]

What am I doing about it???? Lets see... for the most part, without getting into details I run and offer this site as a resource to discuss and learn about topics like this. I am not sure if this qualifies enough for you. Just because I am not in LOSA doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't contribute. LOSA does some great things and I love the effort Fred puts forth with everything he does but that doesn't mean LOSA has the only opinion on the things that effect the Lake O tribs.

[mohawkriverdan]

And a very nice site it is. Thank you. but .......sometimes you got to get your hand dirty. Im sure you care about the fishery as much as LOSA does. I dont intend on insulting you just that actions speek louder than words.

[forgiven1]

lil----> :slap: <----mohawkriverdan

[Lil Salmon]

Well lets see... when the 1 steelhead petition was circulating. I hosted the bandwidth and email addresses to collect and manage all of the digital petitions and then sent them off with 'beards' to be counted in with the rest.

We also have started getting involved with river cleanups, thanks to Cray etc to help the fishery in that way.

This site takes up at least 4 hours per day towards maintenance etc. and thats not including monentary stuff etc.

I think 28 hours a week etc. is enough for me currently.

No insults taken :)

-Lil'

[bigbear]

if they continue to regulate more and more soon you will have to rent your spot on the bank and fish only with your official scoobie do rod and spounge bob bobber issued to you by the trib fishing commission :crackup:

in my opinion LIL and Ditch by running the sites you do and contributing to the education and ethics of the fishing population and that is more valuable than any law

[timdog]

Dunno, but it wouldnt be hard to start buying eggs and skien from fish cleaning stations

I keep saying my previous post is going tobe my last... Here i go again.
1st of all, any person with half a brain would NEVER, I repeat Never chum with trout eggs. If you do, you need your head examined. And iv'e personally never seen that done in my nearly 27 years of steelhead fishing. 2nd forcing people to go to cleaning stations to "buy" there eggs shouldn't even be a consideration. Why? Because the eggs are a product of the fish that the angler chooses to harvest. why should i be forced to pay for a resourse thats available to me if i use it within the legal confines. A lso the potential for profit from Egg Pirates would be too great. i ve seen thes guys preparing to go do there bussiness after dark when im done fishing. carrying there 5 gallon pails and snagging gear down to a certain river in western ny, only to fill them up and go sell them to bait dealers for cash. even companies like ATLAS/MIKES, UNCLE JOSH sell eggs from the great lakes. with most of them being harvest from SNAGGED salmon who's eggs were purchased from thes cleaning stations.

my 2 cents,
timdog

[Flythrower]

if they continue to regulate more and more soon you will have to rent your spot on the bank and fish only with your official scoobie do rod and spounge bob bobber issued to you by the trib fishing commission :crackup:

in my opinion LIL and Ditch by running the sites you do and contributing to the education and ethics of the fishing population and that is more valuable than any law

I agree 100%. Websites like this make people aware of the problem and gives them the opportunity to do something about it!!!

Websites are more than just reports and our favorite (Fish Porn), they also provide an effective medium for fishery information!!

[riptide]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ditchrat wrote:
I dont understand something.


Quote:
Salmon River
Proposal: Allowable fishing tackle in the special regulations fly fishing catch and release (C/R) areas on the Salmon River in Oswego County.
Proposal Description: Require that the weight of the fly line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly or supplemental weight carrying the line while casting and require that the fly line (non-backing) be at least 20 feet in length. Floating and sinking fly lines are allowed as are combination floating/sinking fly lines such as a sink-tip. Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed.
Rationale for Proposal: Use of small diameter “running lines” in the fly fishing areas has resulted in many anglers using supplamental weight as the primary means of propelling the fly while casting. This technique is more akin to drift fishing with monofilament line than to traditional fly fishing and results in overcrowding, and generally impedes the traditional fly fishing activities that these areas were originally intended to provide.

This is the proposal the DEC put forth. Please note it says
Quote:
Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed.
.

Ok now LOSA summary seems to not include this portion or the proposal.

Quote:
3). No added weight in the Upper and Lower fly zone year round, EXCEPT, Weighted flies, sink tip lines or looped in sink tips. Use or running line or low weight level line (Non tapered) is not allowed. Level or running line is allowed if a shooting head or at last 20 feet is attached tot he front end. Essentially DEC wants to have a situation where the angler has to make a FLY cast with what ever configuration they are fishing with so the transfer of energy is between the rod and fly line, not cast/lobbed by the added weight. This reg I think needs some work. They've used the words "Traditional". But the definition of fly fishing traditional is truly very broad. Anglers have been adding some kind of weight to a floating fly line and leader since the dawn of fly fishing. The use of sinking lines and sinking tips and weighted flies might not be any less traditional then a simple tapered floating line and leader. The other problem I see with this reg is that it skews the technique of Indicator fishing that is more of a vertical presentation, very deadly....and not a technique that fouls hooks fish very often This is where an angler will add some shot just below the float or indicator before the fly....and true nymphing ,. . I guess this could be achieved with a small section of lead core, but we'd have to think about it. We are hearing all kinds of rattling on this where some folks want it NO weight added at all.

So how did this change in proposal happen? Did the DEC ask the public for their opinions and lay out their proposal, then back door the public by changing the proposal at the meeting? Or has LOSA just missed something in thier summery? OR is there a possiblity I missed?
__________________


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like an official explanation from LOSA on this as well. In reading the entire thread over at FishUSA it seems there are people there asking the same question without a direct answer. It sure SEEMS to me that LOSA is putting its own spin on the DEC proposal...

[King Davy]

whooooo--a Folks...let's pull back on the reins a little here. First...my post on the SR board was quoted...and I did omit the use of added weight could still be some sort of crimp on weight....just a typo folks. Not meant to start a controversy. Bottom line...as this reg has been drawn up by DEC....(and LOSA has not influenced this thing at all....as far as the wording) is the intention to get the Fly zone back to fly fishing.

The word traditional can not be used as if it means only fishing with a floating line and no added weight. And I state this ...as since the dawn of time anglers who chose to fly fish have developed techniques to get their fly below the surface, from just under it to near the bottom. The only way traditional fits in this explaination is if we are talking about the deliverence of the fly by the method of a fly cast.

A fly cast is where the physic's involved is the transfer of energy from the rod to the line...to deliver the fly. Their are many types of fly cats...but one of them is not to toss the weight that drives the delivery of the fly due to the lobbing of the weight where by an angler can't use the rod to extract the line from the water even in a roll cast and properl the fly by the use of energy transfer from rod to the line.

Pretty simple stuff. We all can add enough weight to even a well tapered fly rig WF, DT, shooting head, you name it where we can't cast the fly any more with the rod and line....because we've added too much weight. The DEC has had plenty of "Help" with this proposal since they marched it out....from one side of the fence to the other...No weight ...floating line only, all the added weight options...to closing the fly zones. (closing them) Not in their scope folks...they want to promote the fly zones back to fly fishing...where an angler can achieve success at using a FLY Fishing method. Think about trying to enforce this method. Even that is pretty simple...if an angler can't make a fly cast with the adeed weight...they aren't fly fishing any more. It would be easy for a warden to observe that...and simply ask them to leave that zone.

For those that like to C&D...you can still fish deep with out just a running line and lots of weight...and this can be a good place to try those methods if you so choose. The fly zones for now...like them or not...for the all the reason you may like them or not...are staying right where they are.

Lill'.....truly you don't want me to get into all that has gone on through the past six years between the trib and lake anglers at the Stakehoders table. LOSA today is the only LO trib org at the table...we'd love to have some help...doesn't have to be LOSA...could easily be Salmon Crazy trib org. but to say we are out numbered is an understatement. The lake folks ore organized from one end of the lake to the other and have been for 30 years...and they have the ears of the politicians who serve their areas.

We have been fighting long and hard to equal things up...and we need help. Feel free to e-mail me and I'll be glad to catch you up on what has happened and what has been done....and then you can take your position any way you see for this site...but it would be wise to let me catch you up first.

As far as this site...you guys do a nice job of providing information and free speach. Mohawk....does have a point however...and this isn't aimed at the SC site..cause i know you guys have been involved with us on the last seminar we did on the SR...plus your stream clean ups...but at some point folks...we have to do more then just USE the fishery...we have to get involved and support it.

Li'll...thanks for the Vine.

[forgiven1]

...in my opinion LIL and Ditch by running the sites you do and contributing to the education and ethics of the fishing population and that is more valuable than any law

True story....well put Big Bear.

[woolybugger65]

I agree!!!!..Make it a true flyfishing area!!

therein lies the problem. there are probably 100's of definitions to the word flyfishing.

[mohawkriverdan]

this site IS the most atractive,egronomic, and largest salmon/steelhead site I have found. I'm not saying anything to take away from this site, I have recived as much info from this site as I have from FishUSA. Imagine what could be acomplished if everyone contributed together. I can almost guarantee that we could cut the lake/steel limit to one.

[mohawkriverdan]

Ditch and Rip Tide,
I'm not 100% but I BELIVE that the LOSA prop and the DEC referendum differ because the DEC reworded it OR LOSA may have changed the wording before submitting it . I can assure you that LOSA is not trying to make up regs. What realy counts is, (and is the same in both) the part about casting WITH the line and not useing wieght to propel the line. In witch case, If you can roll cast it then you can fish it.

I hope I helped clear that up. But there are others that may be able to explain better than I.

[Caddis]

There has been some good discussion on both sides of this but the reality is with the regs as stated in the LOSA article big loopholes. The first day they go into effect someone will be out there with his 10 wt Spey rod with a 2wt WF line with a shooting head(6 feet of lead core) and a Goofy George(2 oz Musky jig) tied on the end. He'll tell everyone that steelies consider it great sport to chase these around at high speed. So once again we end up with more rules that don't really improve the sport. I'd like to think it's worth the effort but I have serious reservations?

[Lil Salmon]

I do understand to some extent the BS with the Lake. I wasn't proposing LOSA needs to pound on them, I was more proposing that the DEC needs to stop being so scared of the Lake boys and do whats right and equal which is make the 1 steelhead limit on the lake effective. If I had more time to get involved I would... right now, this is all the time I can lend...

I do however appreciate the time to clear up the stuff above before everyone gets their undies in a bunch :D

mowhawkriverdan.. no worries man... I understand your intentions were right. Its all good.

-Lil

[King Davy]

Hey folks.....

We actually had a couple different versions of the wording that was pre published...only becasuse some of the DEC folks shared them with us...and then Bill Culligan...who is the head of fisheries for LO and the LE watersheds...asked for another rendition...so the one I had out there didn't end up being what they have logged on their site now.

So it got confusing. Anyway...LOSA did not take part in the wording of this reg either way. Even at the stake holder meeting DEC did not put up the actual wording they will submit for regulation. I hope everyone is aware that this is a reg proposal for Oct 1 2008. But DEC brings these out a year ahead of time.

DEC may still not be finalized with the wording of this reg and is considering a Stakeholders Focus group where they'll invite anglers in to sit on a panel to discuss,and hopefully come up with a final clear regulation of what they want to change in the fly sections...so don't get too wrapped around the axel on this just yet. I've heard they are thinking about this focus group for some time in Feb. but nothing official.

As far as the discussion about lake anglers and how these regs don't match up for the whole fishery...all I can say is that come join the discussion with us. Get an organized group...approach the DEC and get involved. The lake anglers have ben organized for 30 years...and they have a ton of attention from their elected officials. The Tribs on LO have one organized group so far LOSA....and as you all know we don't or can't speak for every body.

For sure any individual can send their take on a situation or regulation to the DEC and they will listen...but when it comes time to gaher stakeholders to work on this kind of stuff...they like to work with groups that are representing a larger number of folks. So there is plenty of room for other orgs. to get involved. It's the way the game is played like it or not. get organized and get involved....while this is a wonderful web site with lots of education...and plenty of very knowledgable people...DEC isn't using it to drive policy. You have to been willing to come to the table.

[mohawkriverdan]

well put. as USAual

[King Davy]

Yeah Lil.....it's politics...no way around it....shouldn't be that way...but it is. DEC while not a politicl entity of NYS...still only survives/stays in business to what degree elected officials of this state decide and mandate their worthiness. Not a comfortable position to be in to have a job and raise a family...knowing that next election you can be out on your arse.

[Lil Salmon]

Glad I am a creative director and not in politics :)

-Lil'

[King Davy]

AMEN....Lil....AMEN

[Craydaddy]

Glad I am a creative director and not in politics :)

-Lil'

Why?? I would vote for you man! LOL!!:D

AMEN....Lil....AMEN

You wouldn't???? :confused:

:crackup::crackup::crackup:

[shotnoyz]

"Essentially DEC wants to have a situation where the angler has to make a FLY cast with what ever configuration they are fishing with so the transfer of energy is between the rod and fly line, not cast/lobbed by the added weight."

I agree with the above statement. That being said, any new regulation must lack ambiguity and should be easy to enforce, as well as truly enforced.....or why bother with it at all.

I would like to see the days of pitching slinkies gone up there. Too many of the fish I have seen are PULLED in backward or sideways with that method being used. I cringe when I see trout hauled in like that.

Me, too.

[shotnoyz]

I dont understand something.


<DT>This is the proposal the DEC put forth. Please note it says .

Ok now LOSA summary seems to not include this portion or the proposal.


So how did this change in proposal happen? Did the DEC ask the public for their opinions and lay out their proposal, then back door the public by changing the proposal at the meeting? Or has LOSA just missed something in thier summery? OR is there a possiblity I missed?
</DT>
That's exactly the point. What happened?

[shotnoyz]

How can three ounces of splitshot tied onto a running line and FLUNG across the river be considered fly fishing? .....Because the rod says Sage, Or because you are useing a fly reel? That style of fishing is just a way of, NOT flyfishing in the flyfishing zone. It is more like spin casting than anything.
Thats why the DEC is trying to FIX the regs. I say as long as you can roll cast it you should be able to fish it. Word it just like that.

No, the kind of fishing you describe depends upon ballistic transport by the shot on the shot and fly line rig. The line does not cast the shot and the fly.

I can roll cast fairly well, though when I don't properly load the rod, my roll casts fail. Maybe some people cannot roll cast too well, even with only a fly as the payload. How then can you place your well intentioned sentiment into unambiguous language that covers all abilities?

[shotnoyz]

Hmmm... I just got caught up with the discussion. So what is the reg anyway? I guess I'll go to DEC site and read it.

[mohawkriverdan]

pwi

[CB1]

If you read in that statement, it said something about giving a newbie a real place to learn to cast a fly! Well, theres a lot of little creeks to do that in.. I will teach my kids and any newbie that goes with me how to Lift. WHY you ask, because I want them to go again and catch fish.. I want them to be the one looking at the other guys and say, Look at those guys standing over fish and still cant catch one........ Losa's a Bunch of f&ckin' elitist bulls!t if you ask me.. Someday if they have it there way, we will all be paying $500.00 for a day trip on the Salmon River for Salmon.. Sounds like Jackson Hole in Wyoming or something to me.. Yep, I had a great day, I actually hooked a Salmon.. LOL.. What a crock of sh!t.. Anways, enough rambling, Im going fishing in the a.m... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[shotnoyz]

Flat Creek is a pretty good stream. Here's what I found on the DEC site:

"Eliminate the opportunity to add weight to a leader, in the Salmon River special fly fishing area from May 1 through August 15;"

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2005/2005147.html


I'm against it.

[shotnoyz]

pwi


What does "pwi" mean?

[Ditchrat]

Flat Creek is a pretty good stream. Here's what I found on the DEC site:

"Eliminate the opportunity to add weight to a leader, in the Salmon River special fly fishing area from May 1 through August 15;"

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2005/2005147.html


I'm against it.

May to aug. isnt that bad of an idea as the skams respond well to swinging flies, so it wouldnt hurt the fishing that much if at all

[shotnoyz]

May to aug. isnt that bad of an idea as the skams respond well to swinging flies, so it wouldnt hurt the fishing that much if at all

No doubt, but I'm more concerned about weightloss creep through time. I suspect some people of yearning to snag rocks with sinktip lines all year long. That way, they can buy more of the things when they lose them, and further mitigate streambed erosion by carpeting it with technologically innovative materials. :rolleyes:

By the way, do you know where the big rocks were dumped into the Salmon River fly zone?

[salmotrutta]

First post here. Read this thread. Why are you guys mad at everyone?
Not being a jerk, just wondering.

[highstickin]

This is what I found at DEC.

Salmon River
Proposal: Allowable fishing tackle in the special regulations fly fishing catch and release (C/R) areas on the Salmon River in Oswego County.
Proposal Description: Require that the weight of the fly line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly or supplemental weight carrying the line while casting and require that the fly line (non-backing) be at least 20 feet in length. Floating and sinking fly lines are allowed as are combination floating/sinking fly lines such as a sink-tip. Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed.
Rationale for Proposal: Use of small diameter “running lines” in the fly fishing areas has resulted in many anglers using supplamental weight as the primary means of propelling the fly while casting. This technique is more akin to drift fishing with monofilament line than to traditional fly fishing and results in overcrowding, and generally impedes the traditional fly fishing activities that these areas were originally intended to provide.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/fish/fishregs/newregs08.html

[shotnoyz]

This is what I found at DEC.

Salmon River
Proposal: Allowable fishing tackle in the special regulations fly fishing catch and release (C/R) areas on the Salmon River in Oswego County.
Proposal Description: Require that the weight of the fly line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly or supplemental weight carrying the line while casting and require that the fly line (non-backing) be at least 20 feet in length. Floating and sinking fly lines are allowed as are combination floating/sinking fly lines such as a sink-tip. Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed.
Rationale for Proposal: Use of small diameter “running lines” in the fly fishing areas has resulted in many anglers using supplamental weight as the primary means of propelling the fly while casting. This technique is more akin to drift fishing with monofilament line than to traditional fly fishing and results in overcrowding, and generally impedes the traditional fly fishing activities that these areas were originally intended to provide.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/fish/fishregs/newregs08.html

Thanks for posting that.

[shotnoyz]

First post here. Read this thread. Why are you guys mad at everyone?
Not being a jerk, just wondering.

I'm not mad. You mad? :p

[salmotrutta]

I'm not, except for the guy who wants to teach everyone to lift.
Seems kinda rediculous to me.

[BUdrew]

No doubt, but I'm more concerned about weightloss creep through time. I suspect some people of yearning to snag rocks with sinktip lines all year long. That way, they can buy more of the things when they lose them, and further mitigate streambed erosion by carpeting it with technologically innovative materials. :rolleyes:

By the way, do you know where the big rocks were dumped into the Salmon River fly zone?

I don't understand this at all :confused: :confused:

Do you lose a lot of sink tips to rocks or do you just not use them because you are afraid to lose one to a rock? If your constantly snagging rock your doing something very wrong. stop it! :D

Maybe your using a tip thats too heavy or long for the water your trying to fish. You can't just have one sink tip and expect it to fit every situation.

Explain how you use and lose em!!! I'm curious. Maybe we can help you out.

Most of my fishing is done with a sink tip and I've never lost or broken one. Ever. I don't think I'm doing anything special except using them correctly. Sure, over time the material can become worn in spots but never have I lost a sink tip. I don't think I have ever seen it happen either. But then again I'm a fairly antisocial angler. If its as prevalent as you say I sure someone has a sink tip snagging story to share.

[CoHo House]

I see ton's of fly rods all over the river, It's a very rare day when I actually see someone flyfishing.
As far as I'm concerned there should still be a salmon snagging season. Take say a 5 week period, alternate 2 days a week when snagging is permitted, say mon, tue. Next week wed. thur. and so on and so on. Charge for some type of commercial snagging licence, and use the extra money to improve the whole river. The lose of trout due to real snagging would be less then probley is due to all the lifting being done now. Enforce all types of fishing hard. The money would pour back in. I used to know at least 25 people from here who used to spend money up there, now maybe 2 or 3. Bottom line is it's all about the dollar, the whole hatchery plug can be pulled at any time due to economics.

[LesPaul]

I think I said that,kinda,not as blatant.:eek: :cool: :eek:

[shotnoyz]

I don't understand this at all :confused: :confused:

Do you lose a lot of sink tips to rocks or do you just not use them because you are afraid to lose one to a rock? If your constantly snagging rock your doing something very wrong. stop it! :D

Maybe your using a tip thats too heavy or long for the water your trying to fish. You can't just have one sink tip and expect it to fit every situation.

Explain how you use and lose em!!! I'm curious. Maybe we can help you out.

Most of my fishing is done with a sink tip and I've never lost or broken one. Ever. I don't think I'm doing anything special except using them correctly. Sure, over time the material can become worn in spots but never have I lost a sink tip. I don't think I have ever seen it happen either. But then again I'm a fairly antisocial angler. If its as prevalent as you say I sure someone has a sink tip snagging story to share.

No, I don't lose sink tips a lot. I like the slow sink one the best. However, they are not as facile as a floating line with a weighted leader They are not necessary. As for a sink tip snagging story, who would own up to that? I've seen them in the river.

[FISHON!]

I see ton's of fly rods all over the river, It's a very rare day when I actually see someone flyfishing.
As far as I'm concerned there should still be a salmon snagging season. Take say a 5 week period, alternate 2 days a week when snagging is permitted, say mon, tue. Next week wed. thur. and so on and so on. Charge for some type of commercial snagging licence, and use the extra money to improve the whole river. The lose of trout due to real snagging would be less then probley is due to all the lifting being done now. Enforce all types of fishing hard. The money would pour back in. I used to know at least 25 people from here who used to spend money up there, now maybe 2 or 3. Bottom line is it's all about the dollar, the whole hatchery plug can be pulled at any time due to economics.


hahahahaha you must be kidding right......good joke!

[9 wt]

There has been some good discussion on both sides of this but the reality is with the regs as stated in the LOSA article big loopholes. The first day they go into effect someone will be out there with his 10 wt Spey rod with a 2wt WF line with a shooting head(6 feet of lead core) and a Goofy George(2 oz Musky jig) tied on the end. He'll tell everyone that steelies consider it great sport to chase these around at high speed. So once again we end up with more rules that don't really improve the sport. I'd like to think it's worth the effort but I have serious reservations?

See the rule it's even in effect and someone has figured out a way around it.
Make all the rules you want and mostly the average joe will suffer. Want to see a change? Stick a few guys in green on the banks. They can even turn the tresle into a nice place to fish.

[flyguy]

See the rule it's even in effect and someone has figured out a way around it.
Make all the rules you want and mostly the average joe will suffer. Want to see a change? Stick a few guys in green on the banks. They can even turn the tresle into a nice place to fish.

The problem is that as long as those fish go back in the water no one is breaking a law! A C&R mandate has basically made flossing legal. Therefore, the FZ's DO need to change.

[Ditchrat]

The problem is that as long as those fish go back in the water no one is breaking a law! A C&R mandate has basically made flossing legal. Therefore, the FZ's DO need to change.


How so? Doesnt the law say line or attempt to line? Are you suggesting that snagging or lining a fish is only enforcable if the fish is kept? Is this a legal observation or practical observation of your?

[flyguy]

How so? Doesnt the law say line or attempt to line? Are you suggesting that snagging or lining a fish is only enforcable if the fish is kept? Is this a legal observation or practical observation of your?

Practical. One hookset per drift, butt hooked fish gets released, what is the CO going to do since no laws are broken? It's impossible to prove that someone intended to floss a fish. We all know what goes on but we are not in the ugly position of proving it in court. That is why it is best to regulate the rigging.

[BUdrew]

However, they are not as facile as a floating line with a weighted leader

They can be! Like many things it takes time to feel comfortable with them.

[BUdrew]

Practical. One hookset per drift, butt hooked fish gets released, what is the CO going to do since no laws are broken? It's impossible to prove that someone intended to floss a fish. We all know what goes on but we are not in the ugly position of proving it in court. That is why it is best to regulate the rigging.

I tend to agree here. Its difficult prove or police intention but we can easily take measure to regulate the gear people are using regardless of its intended use; legal or illegal.

[shotnoyz]

They can be! Like many things it takes time to feel comfortable with them.

I haven't been comfortable with them for the last twenty years or so, especially when they are not required to catch fish.

[OOCnation]

its called the flyfishing zone for a reason. keep the chumps out.

[Ditchrat]

Practical. One hookset per drift, butt hooked fish gets released, what is the CO going to do since no laws are broken? It's impossible to prove that someone intended to floss a fish. We all know what goes on but we are not in the ugly position of proving it in court. That is why it is best to regulate the rigging.

Makes sence.

You and me both know that weightless is impractical(at least in the winter), but the easiest to enforce.

Sinktips with long leaders can be abused, as well a true high sticking.

Whats the happy medium

[Briscoe]

There is nothing that will make everyone happy

[flyguy]

Makes sence.

You and me both know that weightless is impractical(at least in the winter), but the easiest to enforce.

Sinktips with long leaders can be abused, as well a true high sticking.

Whats the happy medium

Not sure there is a way to make everyone feel all bubbly inside. But, I do think it's time for a change.

[Reelscreamer]

its called the flyfishing zone for a reason. keep the chumps out.
I think you have that wrong....I think it keeps the little group of chumps all in one spot.:rolleyes:

[comanche]

it just shows you know nothing about fly-fishing-if they are going to call it a fly-fishing zone-it needs changing-it is not a fly -fishing now??

[heavyfire99]

i know this is only my opinion but like i said before, i use running line and 2 pieces of shot, 5's or 7's, sometimes 3 if i absolutely need it. however i cant afford to replace 65 dollar flyline if i get hooked up with a king and for some ODD REASON my line gets wrapped on a rock or snag or whatever and have it torn to shreds, this is why i use running line, its cheap and it gets teh job done. i enjoy fishing with my flyrod during the salmon season in the lower fly just above the bridge. but everybody knows whats going on. hell i 've seen just as much ripping up in the fly zones as i do below. for instance, the guy last year that was standing to my left with a spey rod, using an indy, RIPPING THE WATER every cast. that was a slow day in the lfz and he hooked up well over 20 times, while i fished next to him with THE SAME FLY fishing normal<cast, mend, highstick> and only hooked 4.

bottom line is, no matter where you go, what laws they change and enforce, the ripping and snagging is going to happen. no matter what.

just this past weekend i was pin fishing in the schoolhouse. i got there before daylight and waited for legal fishing time. from daylight till about 12 i hooked 2 fish.. however the french guys from canada that were down stream and across from me hooked into i dont know 10 or 11 fish. because they were using cannon ball weights with a spey rod RIPPING THE WATER LIKE IT WAS SALMON SEASON

[JL1]

9I agree with you. It's not like your adding a cannonball to your leader like I see half of the time.

[9 wt]

So the difference between adding split and 10' of sink is?
The guys you want to drive away will just switch techniques and you'll still see fish coming in backwards. So what was accomplished?
More rules are not the answer, skin a cat theory. More enforcement?
DEC and the State of New York enforcement is superficial. Please don't give me the budget excuses, I hear it all the time at work so I tend not to buy into it anymore. There are plenty of ways to fund some additional enforcement.They want the revenue and they want people to have a good time so they don't care much about fish coming in backwards.
For that reason I don't want want or need DEC to make illegal a perfectly acceptable and traditional method of getting a fly down in deep/fast water. This is being driven by a select few who want that section reserved for themselves. It won't work.

[metalslayer]

Glad to see we have experts on NY fisheries mgmt from MA on board:rolleyes:

[Flythrower]

Glad to see we have experts on NY fisheries mgmt from MA on board:rolleyes:

lmao...!!!!:D :D

[woolybugger65]

tell us how your really feel slayer. :D

[metalslayer]

Yeah--people will still find a way to snag fish---but SOMETHING has to be done;)

[JeffL]

Not sure there is a way to make everyone feel all bubbly inside. But, I do think it's time for a change.

FYI- I feel all bubbly

[9 wt]

Yeah--people will still find a way to snag fish---;)

That was my point.

SOMETHING has to be done;)

Agree but....

[metalslayer]

Like Flyguy said--EVERYONE will never be happy.The way it is now, very little FLYfishing goes on(especially the LFZ);)

[shotnoyz]

I, for one, welcome comments from our neighbors in MA, PA, OH, CT, NJ, ME, VT, NH, and elsewhere.

[Ditchrat]

Not sure there is a way to make everyone feel all bubbly inside. But, I do think it's time for a change.

Maybe its time to do the right thing and not try to make people bubbly inside

[flyguy]

Maybe its time to do the right thing and not try to make people bubbly inside

Yup.

[Salmo]

i know this is only my opinion but like i said before, i use running line and 2 pieces of shot, 5's or 7's, sometimes 3 if i absolutely need it. however i cant afford to replace 65 dollar flyline if i get hooked up with a king and for some ODD REASON my line gets wrapped on a rock or snag or whatever and have it torn to shreds, this is why i use running line, its cheap and it gets teh job done. i enjoy fishing with my flyrod during the salmon season in the lower fly just above the bridge. but everybody knows whats going on. hell i 've seen just as much ripping up in the fly zones as i do below. for instance, the guy last year that was standing to my left with a spey rod, using an indy, RIPPING THE WATER every cast. that was a slow day in the lfz and he hooked up well over 20 times, while i fished next to him with THE SAME FLY fishing normal<cast, mend, highstick> and only hooked 4.

bottom line is, no matter where you go, what laws they change and enforce, the ripping and snagging is going to happen. no matter what.

just this past weekend i was pin fishing in the schoolhouse. i got there before daylight and waited for legal fishing time. from daylight till about 12 i hooked 2 fish.. however the french guys from canada that were down stream and across from me hooked into i dont know 10 or 11 fish. because they were using cannon ball weights with a spey rod RIPPING THE WATER LIKE IT WAS SALMON SEASON


First of all you don't have to use a $65 line. There are plenty of decent weight forward lines for $25; technology has come a long way. But the argument that you don't have enough money doesn't work because the amount of money you'll save on lead will pay for a fancy line in one weekend. When fly fishing so that the weight of the line casts the fly, maybe a little added weight to get below the surface, you hardly ever get hung up on the bottom. Whenever you are bottom bouncing, snags are inevitable but floating through the water will decrease snags drastically. It's the same principle as a float rod when using an indicator.

As for sink tips, well people will find away to snag or line fish but if you are making contact with the bottom with a sink tip, you'll get hung up far more often than bottom bouncing. It's almost annoying how easily a heavy sink tip hangs bottom and therefore it will also snag fish. But once people learn how to adjust sink tips properly, they can be very effective. People might find a way to snag fish but the effect the new regulations will have on the fish and the fishermen should be very positive. I'm personally looking forward to see people actually fly fishing.

[shotnoyz]

<DD>From the DEC<DD> <DD>"Proposal: Allowable fishing tackle in the special regulations fly fishing catch and release (C/R) areas on the Salmon River in Oswego County. <DD>Proposal Description: Require that the weight of the fly line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly or supplemental weight carrying the line while casting and require that the fly line (non-backing) be at least 20 feet in length. Floating and sinking fly lines are allowed as are combination floating/sinking fly lines such as a sink-tip. Use of added weight or weighted flies are still allowed. <DD>Rationale for Proposal: Use of small diameter “running lines” in the fly fishing areas has resulted in many anglers using supplamental weight as the primary means of propelling the fly while casting. This technique is more akin to drift fishing with monofilament line than to traditional fly fishing and results in overcrowding, and generally impedes the traditional fly fishing activities that these areas were originally intended to provide. "</DD>
Sounds reasonable to me.

[flyguy]

Until some yahoo straps a "legal" level 2-wt line onto his 10 wt ugly stick and claims to be fly fishing. Fishing with flies does not equal fly fishing.

[ctyazfan]

Until some yahoo straps a "legal" level 2-wt line onto his 10 wt ugly stick and claims to be fly fishing. Fishing with flies does not equal fly fishing.

Flyguy...I love the last line.

I have been reading through this and have some questions for everyone.

What is your definition of fly fishing? Is it someone standing on the bank false casting to the center of the river? Is it someone who uses no weight on their line?

It is near impossible to false cast in the LFZ during the peak of the season. People are shoulder to shoulder, as they are just south of the bridge as well as other areas. I don't think you should set a limit on the number of fisherman that can fish in that area of the river or the entire river for that matter.

There is snagging throughout the river, is it worse than previous years?

Are people on this board more concerned with snagging of salmon or steelhead? From the tone of the responses it seems as though everyone is worried about the "chrome" substantially more than the salmon.

Enforce the laws that already exist, use common sense, help educate others on the water. How is the DEC going to enforce no running line? Or no lead? Don't make their job harder, make it easier.

I come up from CT to fish. I fish the LFZ as well as many other areas of the river. It is a wonderful resource and I agree that all should be done to protect it, within reason.


My .02.

[flyguy]

Flyguy...I love the last line.

I have been reading through this and have some questions for everyone.

What is your definition of fly fishing? Is it someone standing on the bank false casting to the center of the river? Is it someone who uses no weight on their line?


That's the million dollar question! I doubt you can define it, but I'm pretty sure that drift fishing with running line is not the connotation of fly-fishing.



Enforce the laws that already exist, use common sense, help educate others on the water. How is the DEC going to enforce no running line? Or no lead? Don't make their job harder, make it easier.

I come up from CT to fish. I fish the LFZ as well as many other areas of the river. It is a wonderful resource and I agree that all should be done to protect it, within reason.


My .02.

Let me ask you a question: What laws do you see being broken that are not being enforced? It's a slippery road. If Joe Yahoo is licensed, rigged legally, sets his hook once a drift, and releases what he pulls in then no laws are broken. You and I can look and clearly conclude when someone is lifting fish, but we do not have to prove it to a judge. Add in that component and you have the crux of the problem...yahoos looking for loopholes. That is exactly why the DEC focuses on regulating rigging..it is really the only way they can enforce civil behavior--and even then it is tough.


Look, the LFZ consists of 3 pools, well 2.5 now that the Church pool is back to normal. Is it really too much to ask to let the folks who want to fish in a more purist style have that water? It creates a unique opportunity for them and does not remove opportunity from any one else.

[ctyazfan]

I would like to see a dedicated DEC officer up there. Over Columbus Day there was one officer on each side of the bank walking around checking licenses. The officer that checked ours, nice guy, was not from the area and no familiarity with the river, etc. I found that a bit odd.

Do you believe that eliminating running line and added weight will reduce the number of fisherman in the LFZ?

How will the DEC enforce the no running line? I am not trying to poke holes in the legislation nor try to find a loophole. I want to make their jobs easier to protect the fishery.

Just playing devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion.

[flyguy]

I guess I see "no running line" as pretty straightforward. Can you explain how you see it differently?

I don't think eliminating running line is enough.

[JeffL]

Its quite apparent when watching someone cast if the line is propelling the fly or if added weight is propelling the fly. This is especially true in the salmon river because there is very little room to back cast. Therefore about 75% of the time a roll cast is needed. A roll cast is virtually impossible to obtain with running line and added weight.

Also- durring peak time- NY has to import DEC agents from other states such as montana. There just simply arn't enough in NY state alone. That is probably what you ran into.

[woolybugger65]

isn't running line a standard diameter "fly" line? if so, how will they enforce not using it. it pretty much looks like any other non sinktip fly line.

[mohawkriverdan]

NO CHUCK AND DUCK!!! Done. Free up the space for the guys that want to fly fish. I dont understand the problem. I chuck and duck and fish more traditionaly. But the Fly zones are being raped by dudes with more wieght than their setups could FLY/ROLL cast. you dont have to be Joan Wulff to understand the difference.

[metalslayer]

Damn--I guess a new 2wt line is in order:p

[salmotrutta]

NO CHUCK AND DUCK!!! Done. Free up the space for the guys that want to fly fish. I dont understand the problem. I chuck and duck and fish more traditionaly. But the Fly zones are being raped by dudes with more wieght than their setups could FLY/ROLL cast. you dont have to be Joan Wulff to understand the difference.

Amen & Thank you Dan.

[Caddis]

In a recent Pennsylvania Forest Coalition newsletter I found a quote that I thought appropriate for this subject.

SPORTSMANSHIP - It's how you act when nobody's watching.

Some call it ethics, some just say
"it's how mom taught me to behave."

If more people subscribed to this philosophy this discussion wouldn't even be necessary.