More lost access

[mattd]

FYI- for you Ohio and Western PA steelheaders. :mad:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07007/751889-358.stm

If you don't know who this guy is, do a search and read about the issue's he's created here in PA.

[Ditchrat]

FYI- for you Ohio and Western PA steelheaders. :mad:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07007/751889-358.stm

If you don't know who this guy is, do a search and read about the issue's he's created here in PA.


hmm. Why are they issues. I dont like posted land either, but why does he not have the right to post his land? I agree ohio has the right to change the water regs, ie stocking or nursery water. How ever I feel like thats like a little kid taking the ball and running home. Seems a little like abuse of power to me.

So whats the issue? Buy land post it and have a fishing club. The only possible issue I can see is if you are going to use a resource that the tax payers pay for then you should be required to pay for it.

So what am I not reading, missing or understranding?

[Adrenalinerush]

hmm. Why are they issues. I dont like posted land either, but why does he not have the right to post his land? I agree ohio has the right to change the water regs, ie stocking or nursery water. How ever I feel like thats like a little kid taking the ball and running home. Seems a little like abuse of power to me.

So whats the issue? Buy land post it and have a fishing club. The only possible issue I can see is if you are going to use a resource that the tax payers pay for then you should be required to pay for it.

So what am I not reading, missing or understranding?

I think you hit the nail on the head Ditch! When someone buys or leases land they have the right to post it. I think the answer is for the States to purchase land or leases or easements to the properties that run along the river. Would it be costly, yes, but thats what it seems to be coming to. The are monies set aside for green acre aquisitions. So why not stream access appropriations from licensing revenue. New Jersey has a trout stamp, if you fish for trout you pay extra. Why not require an extra fee to fish for steelhead and salmon and use the revenue to purchase land rights? Okay all, go ahead and hammer away, just my two cents!

[mattd]

I support a landowners right to post his land but Mr. Beaver feels that he also owns the water flowing through his land. The court case involves many issues, one of them being his stringing cables across the river at the start and end of his property. Also, his club is not like the DSR where it's only a modest fee to fish. His club is limited to 100 members and the initiation fee is $75,000 plus annual membership dues.
If he wins the pending court case then thousands of miles of river and streams will be off limit to anglers, boaters, float tubers, canoeist, kayakers, ect.... This is a landmark case being watched all over the country. Once the precedent is set it will spread like wildfire.

[Ditchrat]

I support a landowners right to post his land but Mr. Beaver feels that he also owns the water flowing through his land. T Also, his club is not like the DSR where it's only a modest fee to fish. His club is limited to 100 members and the initiation fee is $75,000 plus annual membership dues.



Two points the cost of a membership is not the point, things are either right or they are wrong, how much it impacts a person fiscally shouldnt be a issue.

If people want to claim ownership to water let them, then turn around and make them responcible for the damage water running off there property into their water.
Oh and then new membership fee for this year is $200,000 if you want to own some of the property

[Catmandu]

I personally just think this guy is out of control. Now go ahead, start typing and call me jealous, but enough is enough. If this situation isnt controlled, we will see how many of you will continue to turn a blind eye to this or think it is a joke. Common folk, like myself, will have nowhere to fish. Just look at how many hunting spots you have lost to posters since you were a kid? I tknow thats not the same thing, but you get the jist of it. Some people just have to be arguementative I guess!

[Craydaddy]

Matt, correct me if I am wrong but is this the same jerk that bought parts of Elk creek in Union/center counties here in PA and owns the upper reaches of Penns creek???

If it is, this guy is real bad news. I have talked to him.

[RoeHoe]

I am not in favor of losing fishing/public access anywhere...............YES
Do landowners have the right to do with there land what they please..........YES
Great Lakes Tributaries :
This is a difficult situation,for both side of the coin,an artifical fishery,VS
Private ownership,public fish,paid for by the Public,passing thru private land,
and most ofthe generally Public,stand to lose public acess,for what they paid for,and this will plague could spread to a stream near you very soon.
I live about 30 miles from some of SRC propertey,and it has had very limited
access for years,but we are blessed with many miles of quality water here in
Central PA,maybe close to as much as PA & OH,trib waters.

I personally would like to see wade-laws brought in to play similar to those in Michigan,but I feel the land owners should be copensated in some way,as in tax breaks ect,ect

[RoeHoe]

Matt, correct me if I am wrong but is this the same jerk that bought parts of Elk creek in Union/center counties here in PA and owns the upper reaches of Penns creek???

If it is, this guy is real bad news. I have talked to him.

Cray it just might be ? I've heard some rumors about Penns Creek,this fall.
I have heard that SRC goes only after land/streches already posted,leaving pubic acessably waters alone,but I have heard rumors,again I say rumors,
that SRC is activly seeking waters currently open to the public,in OH & PA

[Tbone]

Hey Matt stop your crying and lets get out and do some fishing LOL

[LesPaul]

Just a thought,If the economy is hurt by fisherman losing access to stocked water,paid for by Sportspeople,Could that indeed turn ugly for a Hatchery and its operations.:confused:

[shotnoyz]

This issue will culminate in the government confiscating the lands along the waterways, moves upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court under slightly different situations. People attempting to monopolize government subsidized resources will lose.

[BUdrew]

I don't see what the problem is. Mr. Beaver is buying private land that was already off limits to anglers.

[mattd]

I don't see what the problem is. Mr. Beaver is buying private land that was already off limits to anglers.

There is no question that Beaver has the right to post his land. The question is wether or not he has the right to control the water and access to it that flows through his land. It has always been held that the Commonwealth of PA owns and controls all "navigable waters" within the borders of the commonwealth. Mr. Beaver is saying that since he owns the land on both sides of the river, he also owns the streambed and the water that flows over it until it leaves his property. The lawsuit has been filed against him by several individuals, private groups, and the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, PA department of Environmental Protection and Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. If Mr. Beaver wins his case and sets a precedent then anyone who owns the land on both sides of a waterway will be able to string cables across the river and completely control the access. Imagine what that will mean for anglers and everyone who enjoys anyform of boating.

Yes Cray, Mr. Beaver's club also owns lands on the Yellow Creek, Penns Creek and Warriors Mark Run.

I support his right to control his land. But he cannot be allowed to prohibit passage through it via the waterway. The public has the right to pass as long as they stay within the stream or below the traditional high water mark.

[Kinghookjaw]

you guys ever wonder why all these land owners are named after animals??? salmon, moose, and now beaver. just a strange observation I guess. time to go :fishing2:

[Biggie]

Cray, it's one in the same.............Donnie Beaver....BTW not related to me!

[Flythrower]

you guys ever wonder why all these land owners are named after animals??? salmon, moose, and now beaver. just a strange observation I guess. time to go :fishing2:

I think I would call myself Mr. Sloth....

[River Rat]

I've also heard he is leasing some land on Fishing creek (columbia county)
there is some interesting reading on the net about him and his ''club''
found it while surfing on fishusa's site.

[C-Roc]

River Rat,

Where did you find a link to his website? I am interested in learning if this guy has a reason why he does this or is it just about him making $$$ off hard working fisherman?

[River Rat]

If you search Spring ridge club on yahoo there is a site for the club, and a ''Anti'' site about the club. seems to be a real hot topic. but isn't any stream access the top concern these days!

[Craydaddy]

He wants to own all the prime water on all trout streams and charge insane amount of money. I understand he has the right but he is basically taking it by force and not giving the Fish commission a chance and he will not even work with them.

[RoeHoe]

River Rat,

Where did you find a link to his website? I am interested in learning if this guy has a reason why he does this or is it just about him making $$$ off hard working fisherman?

Croc,
This man is from Central Pa,and is a pretty keen & sucessfull business man,
in his other ventures,Resturaunts and Saftey Equipment distro,also has a hunting ranch,in central Pa,along with his already Established fishing retreats,on Spruce,Yellow & Warriors Mark Creeks,in Cenral PA,along with 20 Mile Creek in Erie,and some water in the Pocono's.
Check out the steelhead site OR fish erie,the debate's have been going on
those sites for some time now.The PA F&BC,is in suit with SRC over some
waters/access on the Little Juniatia,also in SC PA,now.

[Ditchrat]

He wants to own all the prime water on all trout streams and charge insane amount of money. I understand he has the right but he is basically taking it by force and not giving the Fish commission a chance and he will not even work with them.


Good for him, and I dont understand what you mean taking by force?

Oh and I wouldnt work with the fish commission either, his staff is infinately more qualified to manage water then the state is. He has some of the best guides and fisherman on his payroll. Besides they fight him on his ownership all the time so why work with the same people sueing you?

[shotnoyz]

When the cases hit the U.S. Supreme Court, Mr. Beaver will no longer hold exclusive title to the fishing resource. Precedence has been set, and upheld by that court. Bring it.

[Craydaddy]

Good for him, and I dont understand what you mean taking by force?

Oh and I wouldnt work with the fish commission either, his staff is infinately more qualified to manage water then the state is. He has some of the best guides and fisherman on his payroll. Besides they fight him on his ownership all the time so why work with the same people sueing you?

Simple, he is not following the rules. If he just bought it and posted it they can't do anything. I don't know all the details but I talked to the guy and he is far from the friendliest guy there is.

Who are you for?? The public fishing or private/pay?? He has his eyes on alot of water in your area to so when he kicks you guys off your prime water I am sure your story might change.

The issue I have it navigable waters. 2 of the properties I have, have navagable waters and we were told that even though we own the beds of the streams we cannot keep people off.

Just my 2 cents

[fishmaster]

Who owns the steelhead running up these rivers.Privately owned land using publically stocked fish.Question , do the owners of the DSR put any moneys into the stocking of the salmonriver or do they just profit from it with our money. Isn't that like buying a parking lot and selling someone else's cars and saying its my land.Just my 2 cents.

[shotnoyz]

Who owns the steelhead running up these rivers.Privately owned land using publically stocked fish.Question , do the owners of the DSR put any moneys into the stocking of the salmonriver or do they just profit from it with our money. Isn't that like buying a parking lot and selling someone else's cars and saying its my land.Just my 2 cents.

That is one component, and a strong one, that will eventually defeat all attempts to monopolize the waterways. I don't want private hatcheries on any of our rivers and lakes, except those vetted by the local state authorities. One privately funded hatchery in my area is attempting to restock atlantic salmon in the Oneida Lake watershed. They have received guidance from New York state in their endeavor, but basically it is the reason for being of two old guys and their friends to see atlantics thriving in the area once again. Admirable, that. And no, they won't charge you to catch the fish they raised and released.

I urge the state game wardens to keep an eye on the contested waterways, looking for submerged fish barriers. You never know what the hoosiers will do who wish to make America a banana republic.

[Ditchrat]

Who are you for?? The public fishing or private/pay?? He has his eyes on alot of water in your area to so when he kicks you guys off your prime water I am sure your story might change.


Who am I for? Well I am for doing what is right, and not just when it benifits me.

So just because somebody claims ownership to land or water use, that you dont like doesnt mean its not right. If you take away somebodies rights to own land then someday someone might take away your right to own land.

I am a firm believer if you make your living on public resources you should pay for it. So just because he might own the river doesnt mean he owns the fish, since people use it they profit from it a fee or permit should be required.

[metalhead]

Who am I for? Well I am for doing what is right, and not just when it benifits me.

So just because somebody claims ownership to land or water use, that you dont like doesnt mean its not right. If you take away somebodies rights to own land then someday someone might take away your right to own land.

I am a firm believer if you make your living on public resources you should pay for it. So just because he might own the river doesnt mean he owns the fish, since people use it they profit from it a fee or permit should be required.

Hmmm is it me or do you like stating trouble in some of these threads Ditch?? You want to take the boats away from the guides in the Salmon river and now this. Now in this post you say you are a firm believer that if you make your living on public water you should pay for it. Ok I agree too, you dont think it cost these guides money to get there guides permit and then go to school and get a captains lic.? They then still have to buy a drift boat and tons of fishing equipment. Thats like saying because I am in the car business I should pay the car manufactures because I get to make money off there cars when they break. Cmon now get real!!! I think Cray also has a good point, wait till this hits you closer to home and starts affecting how you make your living, I bet you'll change your tune in a hurry.

Just my $0.02

[Catmandu]

Well put Metal. As soon as it shows up in ones backyard, all of a sudden it will be an issue.

[Stonefly]

Ditch Does Mr.Beaver have any interest in the shop you work out of in PA??

[RoeHoe]

Ditch Does Mr.Beaver have any interest in the shop you work out of in PA??

From what I understand there is a fly-shop with posiabble ties to this SRC

[Reelscreamer]

Ditch Does Mr.Beaver have any interest in the shop you work out of in PA??

Good for him, and I dont understand what you mean taking by force?

Oh and I wouldnt work with the fish commission either, his staff is infinately more qualified to manage water then the state is. He has some of the best guides and fisherman on his payroll. Besides they fight him on his ownership all the time so why work with the same people sueing you?

Who am I for? Well I am for doing what is right, and not just when it benifits me.
So just because somebody claims ownership to land or water use, that you dont like doesnt mean its not right. If you take away somebodies rights to own land then someday someone might take away your right to own land.

I am a firm believer if you make your living on public resources you should pay for it. So just because he might own the river doesnt mean he owns the fish, since people use it they profit from it a fee or permit should be required.

Well put Metal. As soon as it shows up in ones backyard, all of a sudden it will be an issue.
Looks like someone is avoiding this thread and Stonefly's comment, But if you read into Ditchrat's comments in his posts it sure sounds like he maybe on Mr.Beavers payroll and it looks like he's playing in Mr.Beavers Backyard... :D

[Ditchrat]

Ditch Does Mr.Beaver have any interest in the shop you work out of in PA??


Nope, but I do have a couple friends that work for him. I personally have not, nor has my shop as far as I know. However I do work for a club that owns private water.

But other then that I find it hard to stomach the idea of taking away somebodies property rights.

I think that each situation is different and the law should be upheld. If the law says it public water then its public water, if the law says its private its private property.

As far as Im concerned if a person owns property people should stop being jealous and greedy.

How would you take it if somebody tresspassed onto your farm to hunt? Or the govenment came in and told you they where taking you house away from you because a highway is coming in?

Property right should not be infrindged on, once you own it its yours.

All I see is people not doing the right thing(protecting your fellow citizens rights) because it you want to do soething you cant.

I think Cray also has a good point, wait till this hits you closer to home and starts affecting how you make your living, I bet you'll change your tune in a hurry.

Just my $0.02

It does effect my living and just this year I lost a piece of water I guide on to the SRC. Just cause it hurts me doent make it less correct, or less legal.

This isnt a property dispute like moose on the oak or the little J. He owns or has rights to the land and want to post his property and people are trying to stop him.

How is that right?

[Finman]

As far as Im concerned if a person owns property people should stop being jealous and greedy.


I agree with a small part of that. Yup, if somebody owns something, good for them. When somebody new on the block comes in, scoops everything up, changes it all around for his own personal gain and upsets a million apple carts in the process, then shame on him!!! Sure he has the right to do so, but nonetheless, shame on him!!!

What I'm curious about, is what is this guy's reputation? I say that because the whole thing SO smells of something "Rotten In Denmark". Can't say that I know the whole story, or the in's and the out's of it either, and I surely don't know the man under fire, but from the little bit that I do know and have read about, is that to me it sounds more like the majority of deep rooted people that have been in the same area for a long time don't want some shrewd, greedy, deep pocketed, already rich asinine out of towner running around leasing and/or buying up all the fishing property that has been fishable for generations, and closing it off to the public, just to make himself more rich. And once again, yes he does have the right to do so.

In many ways I don't blame the folks one single bit!!! To this day, a lot of the local waters that I fish is totally private property that the property owners allow the public to fish on. To me, those are the people that are golden!!! And there needs to be more like them, but also the fisherman using the property need to keep the garbage out and treat the land and water with respect for it to stay open to the public.

So there again, it's not like this guy is buying up properties just to make the asset part of his balance sheet higher... Sounds to me like all the hard feelings and fighting what this guy is doing boils down to that he's an outsider making changes in areas that haven't seen much change and the people of those areas feel they don't want or need any change. And it sounds like Mr. Beaver has a very tight relationship with the little green monster...Greed!!!

And if I'm way off the mark, so be it. That's just what I'm sensing here. Fire Away!!!


Fin

[Ditchrat]

. When somebody new on the block comes in, scoops everything up, changes it all around for his own personal gain and upsets a million apple carts in the process, then shame on him!!! Sure he has the right to do so, but nonetheless, shame on him!!!



I agree with that............

[C-Roc]

I just put this up on a similar thread and as I said before it may be a bit like wearing "rose tinted glasses" but simply see it as a better way then the way it is now...

"It seems to me that the earth may be borrowed but not bought. It may be used but not owned. We are tenants, not possessors, lovers and not masters"....Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings

[chromedome]

The way I see it....Beaver is a thrifty business man that makes his money off of natural resources.....I liken that to someone running a sweat shop....Sure there is money to be made and huge capital to be gained, but IMHO its blood money, not the kind i want to make or be associated with. That being said, Ive meet Da Beaver a few times and he comes across to me just like that guy that ran a who ran a sweat shop in philly before he got busted.(thats where my analogy comes from) A wolf in sheaps clothing. Seems nice enough, but has one adgenda....$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and the fact he basically pays people rediculously low prices for the property he leases/buys make him a scumbag imho. its like this, he may be paying people money that they would never have had, but hes short changing these people BIG TIME, compared to the money that hes making on the properties. In this big business world, your gonna have people that are after the quan, but their is a right and wrong MOREL way to do things. Raping a natural resource for ones own personal gain is no different than running a sweat shop with immigrants and paying them substandard wages....they both suck, IMHO

[BUdrew]

Own a piece of property on a prominent steelhead stream and all your attitudes on this would change real quick. It amazes me how little all of you value the right to own private property. I think what it really comes down to is greed. NY and PA have bought thousands of miles of public fishing access, you want more? Buy it like Mr. Beaver.

[chromedome]

Own a piece of property on a prominent steelhead stream and all your attitudes on this would change real quick. It amazes me how little all of you value the right to own private property. I think what it really comes down to is greed. NY and PA have bought thousands of miles of public fishing access, you want more? Buy it like Mr. Beaver.

I dont disagree withe the right to own private property, as a matter of fact I do ALOT of my fishing on private property, for which I am grateful. If I owned land on stream, theres a good chance it would be posted. What I do disagree with is a business man scouping up land that uses PUBLIC RESOURCES to be reserved for the have mores that pay lavish ammounts of money in dues, initiation fees, etc...to have their own "shang-ra-la". While I dont be grudge anyone who is more fortunate than I, I have a problem with PUBLIC RESOURCES being exploited. I know of some of Da beavers endevers in PA, and think they suck. Its not about greed, its about what is right. While I feel that any landowner has the right to do what they want to with their property, i dont feel that it is right to make huge gains an a public resource. Your tax dollars and my money I spend on liscenses go twords stocking the streams that Mr Beaver now collects a pay check on. Is that not wrong? A simple solution would be to make an impassible barrier where the money line starts and let Beaver be responsible for his own quarry of choice. So far hes very clever on where he has ecquired his tributairy properties....Hes pretty much in the middle of the tribs from what i see, making it impossible for the DEC to place a weir or damn in to stop further migration on the cash cow land. doing that would stop migration on to public access land that further upstream. It would be no different that what he has done on spring creek in state college, hes got his stuff locked up so the chances of one of his genetic freakazoid pellet fed slobs excaping the clutchs of his high priced alice in wonderland fishing experience are greatly reduced. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. My feelings are that you will see the DEC taking a hard look at the tribs that he has now acquired, and consider stopping the stocking program on them. (please dont give me the thank god, natural reproduction stuff here.)Heck, the DEC is always looking for apportunities to cut spendings(as all govt agencies are). So who wins if that happens?? We can all send a big F you to da beaver and his greed.........

[BUdrew]

What I do disagree with is a business man scouping up land that uses PUBLIC RESOURCES to be reserved for the have mores that pay lavish ammounts of money in dues, initiation fees, etc...to have their own "shang-ra-la".

I do agree with you on this point. Mr. Beaver should compensate the state for the use of public resources (fish).

EDIT: After further thought Mr. Beaver does compensate the state. He pays taxes on his income just like you and I.

[mattd]

BUDREW
Here in Pennsylvania the Fish and Boat Commission and all of it's activities, including stocking, are solely supported by Commission revenue (license sales, fines, timber right ect....). NO generally collected tax dollars goes to the Commission.

[Craydaddy]

Does Mr.Beaver even lilve in PA????

The PFC and the PGC are pretty much self sufficent.

[BUdrew]

BUDREW
Here in Pennsylvania the Fish and Boat Commission and all of it's activities, including stocking, are solely supported by Commission revenue (license sales, fines, timber right ect....). NO generally collected tax dollars goes to the Commission.

Thank you I did not know that....thats quite different from what we have in NY.

[shotnoyz]

Own a piece of property on a prominent steelhead stream and all your attitudes on this would change real quick. It amazes me how little all of you value the right to own private property. I think what it really comes down to is greed. NY and PA have bought thousands of miles of public fishing access, you want more? Buy it like Mr. Beaver.

Streets, interstate highways, power line connections all have one thing in common: most of the land upon which they sit and cross was once privately held.

The rivers, and lakes like the Great Lakes, should be accessible to us all -- every bit of them.

[BUdrew]

I think the DEC sums up my views pretty well here

"Please note: small tributary streams to the major water listed here also get runs of steelhead. These streams can provide good fishing, but they are located on private lands and you must have landowner permission to fish them. Your fishing license is not a permit to trespass on private property!"

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/fish/reg9steelheadstreams.html