Bead Fishing...offically?

[Tempe]

I see that the bead fishing debate is still strong and controversial. I decided that I would do something proactive about it and go straight to the determination people for some answers, the DEC. I literally work right next door to the DEC Cortland office. I spoke to an officer, who will remain anonymous, because I did not get permission to state his name (because I forgot), but he workers in the Fisheries division of the DEC. He stated that this topic is becoming a hot topic as of late probably do to the national attention that has brought it to the forefront. Officially, it is a “grey” area within the regulations, but is to be slated to be discussed and addresses directly in the coming regulations meetings, of which he is a part of. What this officer said was that Alaska, and other States have adopted this idea for various reasons. His personal feelings on this would be that it is just another lining technique and that it would not be seen in the best light, in others words he frowns on it. He said that because it is a “grey” area that it would be up to the individual officer to determine legality, but he feels that other officers would frown on it as well. He did say that it officially would be illegal if done in any of the special regulation areas…the fly zones.

I do not beleive that I misquoted any of our conversation, nor did I intentionally take any of that conversation out of context. My position on this was that I felt it was a deadly technique, that I would us if there was an offical stance, but because it seemed to be a little risky, I would stay away. After speaking with the DEC, I choose to stay away!

So there you have it…bead away if you wish, but don’t say that you were not warned!

[JeffL]

How can it be linning if the fish are actually hitting the egg. From what I heard it prevents them from swallowing the hook

[Craydaddy]

How can it be linning if the fish are actually hitting the egg. From what I heard it prevents them from swallowing the hook

You floss your teeth right????

I can see the Gray area. They hit the egg not the HOOK. Maybe they think it is like a sneak attack!

(fish thinking)
Yummm egg......Gulp.....why is there something sliding through my mouth....WHACK!!!! OUCH!!!

[Snagger]

Yeah I have been looking for something where they dont swallow the hook so deep. Its like fishing for sunfish at times. They hammer it and the fly is 8 to 10" down thier throat. Man those salmon eat. I feel really bad when the exotic salmon with the white fins do that. I mean those are an old fish. I really would hate to harm one of them. Those albino salmon have been caught and relased so many times theres a chance they could die. I almost feel cruel when fishing at times. :D

[Snagger]

By the way Cray there aren't alot of teeth to floss in these parts. I didn't think there were too many in Penclytucky Either.:D

[Linescreamer]

Just a thought. Does the DEC see your truck parked in the lot and follow your footprints to the hole and immediatley give you a ticket; or do they wait for you to do the deed? :D

[Snagger]

Just a nickname dude. I have had it for a long time. I have NEVER had a fishing ticket. I don't have to look over my shoulder when I fish. Simple bottom bouncing can lead to alot of success without any problems from the wardens. Its truly a shame that some people have to come up here and yank a rod over thier head 4-5 times per cast. Thats not fishing. :mad:

[JeffL]

To me linning is purposely using long tippet and xtra weight. As the tippet goes by it gets caught up in the fishes mouth, then the hook/ fly slides right into the fishes mouth. Its all based on intent and the above version of linning is very unethical, but i disagree with the bead set up as unethical/ or linning because the fish are actually striking the bead, unlike the what I discribed above. Plus the bead set up is preventing the fish from swallowing the hook.

[Craydaddy]

To me linning is purposely using long tippet and xtra weight. As the tippet goes by it gets caught up in the fishes mouth, then the hook/ fly slides right into the fishes mouth. Its all based on intent and the above version of linning is very unethical, but i disagree with the bead set up as unethical/ or linning because the fish are actually striking the bead, unlike the what I discribed above. Plus the bead set up is preventing the fish from swallowing the hook.


Good point, that is what most of us see but is that what the DEC see's?? I can see why beads would work, heck glo bugs do! The only difference I see is the bare free swining hook.

Now if you put a bead 2 or 3 feet way form the bead I can see the issues!! But if it is an inch or 2 I don't see anything wrong but I am not the DEC.

Just my 2 cents :wave: :faint:

[Stonefly]

Plus the bead set up is preventing the fish from swallowing the hook.
Ok, This raises a good point, How many Steelhead have you seen caught where they swallowed the hook?

[Lil Salmon]

Are we referring to steelhead or kings here though....

[BUdrew]

Good point, that is what most of us see but is that what the DEC see's?? I can see why beads would work, heck glo bugs do! The only difference I see is the bare free swining hook.

Now if you put a bead 2 or 3 feet way form the bead I can see the issues!! But if it is an inch or 2 I don't see anything wrong but I am not the DEC.

Just my 2 cents :wave: :faint:


thats the way I see it too!

Tempe: thanks for doing the dirty work and finding out the real deal from the DEC. I will deff take this into consideration the next time I hit the stream with beads

[Tempe]

Are we referring to steelhead or kings here though....
As a technique in general, any and all species.

[JeffL]

I'm referring to steelhead, I usually don't fish egg patterns for kings. I've caught a few steelhead that swallow the hook, but thats usually when I'm fishing with bait, especially the little guys.

[Snagger]

Yeah Too Much weight & a long leader is the worst part of lining. I don't have any problems with a 4' leader. You actually get more fair hooked fish than a guy with a 10' leader. Then you see the guys with 3 #2 in slow water. :confused: Just enough weight to lightly tap bottom is the key to any good drift fishing. Lots of times I look at the water and can get pretty close. Then I might spend my first 3-5 drifts to determine how much weight is correct for the spot i am fishing. Besides, you will notice many of the guys with a ton a weight spend more time stuck on bottom and retieng. What a pain. I always have plenty of different weights handy for when I am covering alot of water. You might have to change weight 3-4 times in a 100 yard stretch to keep the proper drift presentation. You will have more success and more fun becuse you wont be stuck on the bottom and your fly or bait will be spending more time in the fish zone. :)

[BUdrew]

I think this is an issue that NY has to address. Laying out guidlines like max leader leigenth and distance between bead and hook is a good start. Anything more then 2in above the hook is flirting with lineing if you ask me.

[Junkyard Gypsy]

I think DEC sees it as "substantial" weight near the hook, aka weighted hook. Its no different the using a rubber egg, but beads got much more weight (sink rate).

Honestly I think with the >1/2" hook gap, 1-1/2" gap between hook and lure AND the current lifting laws, really its no different than me using a rubber egg on my rig, but I ain't making the rules. I would use them, but I have had such good success with the rubber ones on the hook and have not had any deep sets that I can remember (keyword being "can" and "remember":D ). The natural colors of them are VERY NICE, beats those funky colors tackle shops try to sell:rolleyes2: .

[JeffL]

I use jensen and exude eggs a lot for fall steelhead, I've notice that I've lost a few fish because the egg slides down the hook gap and prevents the hook from sticking in the fishes mouth. This would prevent that from happening. Is there an egg hook out there that has a barb on top of the hook for holding eggs stationary on the hook?


Snagger- You got it right about drift fishing. If I touch bottom more than twice in a drift I lighten up. Once you know where the bottom is on your drift, anyother hesitation is a fish. Took me years to learn that.

[Snagger]

The weight issue is the biggest piece of solving the puzzle for success. I rate that as much more important than the right fly or bait. You can have exactly the same bait / fly as the guy next to you, but if its not presented properly you might not hook up for hours. Then when you do finnally hook up, its more by accident. There are alot of other little things to hook or land more, but I think thats the biggest thing a person can learn about this type of fishing. Then you can go anywhere and apply the same technique, for 8" brookies or 20# Salmon. I know there are other brands out there, but I do know that mustad makes some short shank hooks with a barb on top to hold an egg or other bait in place just like the snelled baitholder hooks you buy in 6 packs.

[woolybugger65]

He said that because it is a “grey” area that it would be up to the individual officer to determine legality, but he feels that other officers would frown on it as well.

geez, up to the individual to decide? you know who is gonna win that arguement.

[woolybugger65]

He said that because it is a “grey” area that it would be up to the individual officer to determine legality, but he feels that other officers would frown on it as well.

geez, up to the individual to decide? you know who is gonna win that arguement.

[frank arendt]

C,mon you guys!!Picture a steel grabbing the bead,you set the hook,it slides up the leader,the fish has his mouth closed..The hook slams into the outside of his face!!Fishing ethically proposes the fish is hooked in the mouth every time,that's what a lure is all about...The fish eats the lure!!!! Why should it even be a verbal consideration??? Beats me...frank

[hizzy19]

Man those salmon eat. I feel really bad when the exotic salmon with the white fins do that. I mean those are an old fish. I really would hate to harm one of them. Those albino salmon have been caught and relased so many times theres a chance they could die. I almost feel cruel when fishing at times. :D

LMFAO!!! That's good stuff Snag...

Fishing ethically proposes the fish is hooked in the mouth every time,that's what a lure is all about...The fish eats the lure!!!! Why should it even be a verbal consideration??? Beats me...frank

The fish IS eating the lure, isn't it? At first when reading about this method it seemed very unethical... But when looking at it from an Alaskan perspective, perhaps it is MORE ethical and you are actually protecting the steelhead from an injury by preventing a deep take... Outside versus inside is the main debate here, and to me as long as the fish actively eats the lure I'm drifting by, then I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong...

[metalslayer]

I've caught some hooked pretty deep but NONE in 20 or so years that took it deep enough to be harmfull to the fish;)

[Browntrout5]

C,mon you guys!!Picture a steel grabbing the bead,you set the hook,it slides up the leader,the fish has his mouth closed..The hook slams into the outside of his face!!Fishing ethically proposes the fish is hooked in the mouth every time,that's what a lure is all about...The fish eats the lure!!!! Why should it even be a verbal consideration??? Beats me...frank


Correct me if I am wrong, isnt that called fishing? I mean the fish legitimately hit the bead and the hook was set. What is wrong with that? The fish did try to eat the lure. Let me ask you this. Should trailer hooks or stinger hooks be illegal on bass lures because they are not directly attached to the lure? The whole purpose is to hook the fish on short strikes. How is the hook dangling 2inches beneath a bead any different? I am very intrigued by the idea and want to try it this fall under a float

[BUdrew]

LMFAO!!! That's good stuff Snag...



The fish IS eating the lure, isn't it? At first when reading about this method it seemed very unethical... But when looking at it from an Alaskan perspective, perhaps it is MORE ethical and you are actually protecting the steelhead from an injury by preventing a deep take... Outside versus inside is the main debate here, and to me as long as the fish actively eats the lure I'm drifting by, then I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong...


Well said Hizzy!

[BUdrew]

yesssssss yessssssssss Bead fishing is the new "Dark Side." Feel the power of the force.

[keukakatch&release]

Ok, This raises a good point, How many Steelhead have you seen caught where they swallowed the hook?

Too many this year to count, actually. I fish fresh eggs, not flies, and I have had to keep 2 fish this year that practically bled out on the way in. Most of my "deep" hooked fish were males, for some reason.....

[Junkyard Gypsy]

C,mon you guys!!Picture a steel grabbing the bead,you set the hook,it slides up the leader,the fish has his mouth closed..The hook slams into the outside of his face!!Fishing ethically proposes the fish is hooked in the mouth every time,that's what a lure is all about...The fish eats the lure!!!! Why should it even be a verbal consideration??? Beats me...frank


Using that logic they should outlaw bottom bouncing all together to eliminate the possiblitity of lining a steelhead. If you bottom bounce there is ALWAYS is the possiblity of lining and not taking the "lure" no matter how far the "lure" is from the hook.:crazy: :rolleyes: . Its called fishing, far, VERY far from intentionally snagging, which is covered by the "high-sticking/intentional snagging" law. Even if you fish an unwieghted fly there is the remote possibilty due to the numbers of fish in the area to line one. Center pin too....

[ajfromnj]

in alaska they have to fish the beads like that. the rainbows are feeding so crazily that they just inhale everything. if you used a glowbug you would kill the fish. plus you can get beads that look exactly like any fish egg imaginable. check out www.troutbeads.com pretty cool stuff.

[Linescreamer]

Just a nickname dude. I have had it for a long time. I have NEVER had a fishing ticket. I don't have to look over my shoulder when I fish. Simple bottom bouncing can lead to alot of success without any problems from the wardens. Its truly a shame that some people have to come up here and yank a rod over thier head 4-5 times per cast. Thats not fishing. :mad:

No need for the frown man. No insulting on my part :) . I understand but, when we met I couldn't forget the plates on your SUV and woundering if the DEC followed you around? I didn't and wouldn't call you or anyone a snagger unless, it was a self proclaimed nickname :) . Well, I take that back, maybe I would call someone a snagger if I truely wanted to get under their skin ;) .

[TOPGUN]

I'm a little confused with all this talk about "deep takes". I'm no expert but if you're finding your fish with the hook down it's throat that would tell me that you're not feeling and reacting to the initial take and setting the hook on that first hesitation??
My neighbor always comes back from trout fishing with 3 or 4 and says "They were taking it hard and were swallowing the hooks. I had to take them". I don't think it's a case of "taking it hard" as much as a case of the angler not feeling the take. Often with too much weight to actually feel the take. Don't mean to insult anyone here, just don't understand how it could get to a point where the fly is down the throat before you set the hook. Not doubting anyone.
As for beads I posted a thread when the article was in LOO. It's a deadly technique but to me seems unethical. You're pulling your line through it's mouth to eventually hook the fish. 2 inches or 2 feet, it's still lining.

[tree-on]

I use jensen and exude eggs a lot for fall steelhead, I've notice that I've lost a few fish because the egg slides down the hook gap and prevents the hook from sticking in the fishes mouth. This would prevent that from happening. Is there an egg hook out there that has a barb on top of the hook for holding eggs stationary on the hook?


Snagger- You got it right about drift fishing. If I touch bottom more than twice in a drift I lighten up. Once you know where the bottom is on your drift, anyother hesitation is a fish. Took me years to learn that.

Eagle L 38's have a single barb. Makes getting a broken egg sack off a little harder though.

[hizzy19]

lining is snagging, right? i thought the definition of snagging is when you hook a fish that did not bite...

[TOPGUN]

That's a good point hizzy....but if it's just the bite that matters than why not put the bead right on the hook????

[Junkyard Gypsy]

By this definition you can line a fish that bites or doesn't? bottom bouncing (in general) and fly swinging has the same potential to line a fish regardless of whether he is hungry regardless of location of "lure".

BTW I don't use beads, just trying to understand this heated topic of lining, because no matter what anyone does with the presentation (unless fishing verticle using a bobber) they will be gulity, whether the fish was hungry or not, of lining. To determine if the fish was hungry is not indicative of hook location being in the mouth. When the water is flowing that fish may do a number of things to the hook before he spits it. And depending on the sensitivity of the fisherman, he may hook the fish before he spits the hook and it may have just lined into his mouth. Again small bead and realistic sized hook (size 6-10) the intention to snag is not there, and everyone is guilty of lining during a huge run of fish, like it or not the line goes through the fishes mouth and the fish may not like it either.

[JeffL]

I think AJ actually hit it right on the head. I know the technique was developed in Alaska and what he said is very true. I remember seeing a show with this a few years ago. It started with the rainbows gorgeing themselves on Sockeye eggs and since most of the rainbow fisheries/ lodges are into the catch and release it was the best way to prevent those fish from swallowing the hook. In the show I saw the hook was never on the outside of the fishes mouth, always bottom corner. What's good for Alaska may not be good for NY. Its really up to the DEC and it seems they don't have a clear stance. I like that site that AJ posted. I might have to get that steelhead package and see if it works.

[hizzy19]

but if it's just the bite that matters than why not put the bead right on the hook????

Good question, does it equal more strikes to put a bead 2 inches from the hook rather than on it???

[cuz]

Good question, does it equal more strikes to put a bead 2 inches from the hook rather than on it???
I think the reasoning behind NOT putting the egg on the hook is to prevent fish from swallowing the hook. JeffL's post brings up a really good point and makes perfect sense. Someone said it best, what works for Alaska may not work for NY.

[The Griz]

OK.....I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. If a fish is going to strike
this rig head on:

-------------0----j ():<<<>>><

line egg hook fish

Guess where the hook is going? Deeper in the fishes throat/gullet. Chances
are, once the fish closes it's mouth around the egg, the hook will lodge somewhere deeper on the mouth. This may be a consideration for the
comments made about deep-hooking. Another thing, if we keep introducing
"grey area" styles of rigs/fishing, it's going to create more controversy and eventually......rules.

Just a thought....

~Griz~

[cuz]

OK.....I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. If a fish is going to strike
this rig head on:

-------------0----j ():<<<>>><

line egg hook fish

Guess where the hook is going? Deeper in the fishes throat/gullet. Chances
are, once the fish closes it's mouth around the egg, the hook will lodge somewhere deeper on the mouth. This may be a consideration for the
comments made about deep-hooking. Another thing, if we keep introducing
"grey area" styles of rigs/fishing, it's going to create more controversy and eventually......rules.

Just a thought....

~Griz~

Very interesting, Griz!!! Never thought of that:confused:

[BUdrew]

In the show I saw the hook was never on the outside of the fishes mouth, always bottom corner. What's good for Alaska may not be good for NY. Its really up to the DEC and it seems they don't have a clear stance. I like that site that AJ posted. I might have to get that steelhead package and see if it works.


Anyone who bead fishes alot will confirm that almost all hook sets are in the corner of the mouth. I don't know where people are getting this outside of the mouth thing. Again education and awarness will wake up the eleitest SAlmon River community.

Here is my post from the other bead fishing thread:


Bead fishing is an embraced tactic in Alaska, the Pacific North West and Michigan. If bead fishing is snagging then Matt Supinski, author of the famous “Steelhead Dreams” as well as many other Great Lake Fishing books, who is possibly one of our sports leading experts is a snagger and you need to direct your hate mail towards him. His lodge, Gray Drake Outfitters, on the Muskegon River use beads to fool heavily pressured late season Steelhead for years. I think awareness and education will wake the elitist Salmon River community up to the idea in due time.

Because of the Salmon River's history and reputation snagging in a sensitive issue, I understand this. Fishermen who take the time to paint their beads on the river, or mold the beads out of carefully chosen clay then firing them in their oven are not out snagging fish. The end result could be accomplished without all the trouble using anything from a store bought wollybugger to a hook with a piece of sponge on it. Bead fishermen are simply matching the hatch just as any trout fishermen would do on a spring freestone stream. The problem is not the bead rig, it’s the fishermen abusing our rivers.

[BUdrew]

OK.....I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. If a fish is going to strike
this rig head on:

-------------0----j ():<<<>>><

line egg hook fish

Guess where the hook is going? Deeper in the fishes throat/gullet. Chances
are, once the fish closes it's mouth around the egg, the hook will lodge somewhere deeper on the mouth. This may be a consideration for the
comments made about deep-hooking. Another thing, if we keep introducing
"grey area" styles of rigs/fishing, it's going to create more controversy and eventually......rules.

Just a thought....

~Griz~


As far as a fish hitting the rig head on I'm not sure that has happened to me in 3 seasons but without seeing 90% of takes I could never be sure.. I do know that I have never deep hooked a fish with the bead rig and have deep hooked fish with egg sacks.

As far as more rules....I'm all for em. Please bring on the rules so we fishermen don't have to deal with grey area's and maybe it will help to clean up our river. It seems to me if your against regulation then your best interests are not with the fishery.

[The Griz]

Just looking at a different angle BUDrew. If you're implying that I'm against
more regulations, I'm not. I'd certainly like to see the ones we have in place enforced better before any new ones are added. If you have great success actually fair hooking (getting fish attracted to the bait) then great. I'm not keen on the idea, but to each his own.

And....if you think my best interests aren't with the fishery, then you
obviously have no idea who I am. :)

~Griz~

[BUdrew]

Just looking at a different angle BUDrew. If you're implying that I'm against
more regulations, I'm not. I'd certainly like to see the ones we have in place enforced better before any new ones are added. If you have great success actually fair hooking (getting fish attracted to the bait) then great. I'm not keen on the idea, but to each his own.

And....if you think my best interests aren't with the fishery, then you
obviously have no idea who I am. :)

~Griz~


Sorry Griz I did not mean to implicate you! I have been reading your posts on here as well as FishUSA for a few years and I deeply respect your opinions. If the way you present yourself on these boards is any indication of how you fish I know you are not only a gentlemen but also one hell of a fishermen.

[BUdrew]

Here is the rig I use....from another post:


I keep this rig on the ol' Lindy Rigger a dozen per tube
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c235/SLPandy/Picture020.jpg

And here it is, with a 1.5 inch gap between hook and egg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c235/SLPandy/Picture022.jpg

[The Griz]

No sweat BU. It would be great to be able to do some underwater camera footage of all types of techniques, and then use it for educational tools, and/or to prove good and bad points.

OR

Just get a bunch of SC guys together and put many styles/rigs to the test during a good run of fish. Might make for a very enlightening and entertaining day!

~Griz~