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Ditchrat
10-25-2005, 08:53 PM
Hello all,

There has been alot of questions on telling the difference between domestic rainbows, winter run and summer run rainbows. I wish that I could clear up this question for all of you once and for all. The fact is that I can. The only problem is that you will not like the answer. So I will try and give you as much scientific information as I can, and maybe you can get a sence of satisfaction from them.

Oncorhynchus mykiss is the current scientific name for all of the above fish. Right now the consences is that rainbows are more closely related to Pacific Salmon then to trout like browns. This is not a proven fact but simple a manmade group based on similar morphalogically charicteristic. I.E phisological make up, not outward apperances. In the future this may change with the use of gentic mapping, how ever once again this is based on man made criteria.

So that being said, why do we call rainbow trout by other names. First there are regional names given by local people and are commonly acepted. Scientist do not recognize common names for fish, only the latin name. Some fish have sub-species. Sub species are fish that have been isolated to the extent that they have different charicteristic then other fish in the same species, but can still interbred and produce viable off spring. This idea is the key to charicterizing species. Many fish are so closely related that they can interbred but do not produce viable offspring. An example of this are coho X (read X= to the word "by") Chinnok co-noks which are sterile.
Rainbows can and do cross with cutthroats leding (rainbow X cutthroat = cutbows) many to believe they are sub-species not different species.

A rainbow or skam or chamber creek or others are consider strains, please note I saying strains not sub species. Strains are different in that they are geneticly identical, but have been isolated to the point where they are showing different physical traits, an example in humans is asian having black hair, africans having darker pigments, or scandinavians have light skin. All human have the genetic potential to exhibit any of these trait, however they are recessive, not dominant. This is the simple version of this, not the scientifcly acurate one. Anyone please add if you would like to explain, it is out of my expertise, and I would love a genetics lesson.

Back to trout, rainbows have been isolated from each other because they have evolved to return to there native streams, and thus do not interbreed. This inturn lets them develope charicteristics independent from each other. Timing of a spawning run is also a way fish isolate there gentic traits.

So what does this mean to us. First a skam can only be proven to be a skam by fin clips. Asumming it came from pure stock or the native water shed of Skams. Their spawning over laps other rainbows strains. They will and do spawn with domestics, chambers creek, skams and other strains.

Some people believe that they can recognize the charicteristic of individual strains. It is possible with alot of practice or training. The problem is that unless you are sure at what your looking at and basing your opinion on is what you think it is, then it your just taking a guess.

So to sum it all up, what makes a steelhead a steelhead? Well any rainbow that runs up a river to spawn from a large body of water could be called a steelhead.

Good luck




Just for fun here is part of the genetic code for rainbows

Base1 =TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Base2 =TTTTCCCCAAAAGGGGTTTTCCCCAAAAGGGGTTTTCCCCAAAAGGGGT TTTCCCCAAAAGGGG
Base3 =CAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTCAGTC AGTCAGTCAGTCAG

bigbear
10-25-2005, 09:25 PM
GREAT POST ditch !!!!
thanks for the info
you should write several books
i'm sure you have way too much info for just one :)
seriously, great info, thanks

flyguy
10-25-2005, 09:34 PM
http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/skamie.html

woolybugger65
10-25-2005, 09:38 PM
thanks ditch, i saved that post as well. just another one to my ongoing ditch collection. you're the man.

stackmend
10-25-2005, 11:22 PM
I said it somewhere before on one of those what is this posts. Fisheries biologists can't tell them apart taxonomicly with a microscope because they are all rainbow trout. Even having taken eggs and milt from adult steelhead we technicality don't have any steelhead since by definition they must run to salt water to be termed as such. A rose is a rose is a rose so to speak.

Ditchrat
10-25-2005, 11:38 PM
I said it somewhere before on one of those what is this posts. Fisheries biologists can't tell them apart taxonomicly with a microscope because they are all rainbow trout. Even having taken eggs and milt from adult steelhead we technicality don't have any steelhead since by definition they must run to salt water to be termed as such. A rose is a rose is a rose so to speak.

Isnt that what I just said?:rolleyes:

stackmend
10-26-2005, 06:59 AM
It is EXACTLY what you just said. And isn't what you just said therefore the same thing I had said earlier? Just pointing out that while your's was a well thought out and written piece (even if a bit wordy), that doesn't mean you get scientific credit for creating it. Was it that I mentioned having already said it bother you or that I did it in common language not high brow stick up my but! look at me speak? Sorry I forgot the big grin and wink symbols here!! :D ;)

Ditchrat
10-26-2005, 07:39 AM
:D ;).

flyguy
10-26-2005, 07:58 AM
Steelhead: Anadromous and undergo smoltification regardless of whether they mature in fresh or salt water. Other strains of rainbows (domesticated fall spawners or wild/naturalized spring spawners) do not smolt. There is not a physiological difference.

Aside from fin clips (and remember, ONLY those fish stocked directly into the SR or those fish marked for study purposes have clips--including Skamania strain steelhead) you cannot tell with certainty one from the other when they are in the tribs.

floatfisher
10-26-2005, 08:53 AM
I used to get involved in these type posts but no matter how much scientific data you use or simpleton terms you use people are still going to believe what they want to!!! I have a little bit of fisheries in my back ground (from school days) but tend not to chime in.

Simply put - rainbow, steelie, skam, domsetic, fall spawner, spring spawner, winter = same fish different strain!!! Including the fish from the finger lakes, you call em rainbows I call em steelies, were both correct.

One thing that I tend to see/hear is when you land a fish, if it is dimond bright every one says it is a steelie. If you land a nicely colored up fish you hear its a rainbow?!?! The colors really dont have anyhting to do with what type of fish you landed but the fish is just in a different stage of it cycle. The closere the fish is to spawning the more colored up the fish will be, and to throw another scenario in to the mix, the fish will get darker just by being in the river (camo). Example - a fish enters a river in Oct/Nov but is not going to spawn till Mar/Apr and you catch it in Dec, the fish will be dark. The colors at this time are not to attract a spawning partner but to blend in. (Actually the same can be said with browns aswell.)

Just my $.02!!!

What ever the fish may be, I will still persue them with the pin and release every one I catch so that some day my kids will have a chance to catch their magnificent offspring!!!

flyguy
10-26-2005, 09:23 AM
http://cattaraugusfishery2.tripod.com/fish/smoltification.html

TOPGUN
10-26-2005, 10:31 AM
Ditch and Flyguy - great posts with some excellent data to support the definitions. Thanks for the schooling. I like starting my day with a good Biology lesson..

Tempe
10-26-2005, 11:16 AM
WOW...for a minute there I was having flash backs and thought I was back in Biology class :D

Great Info, Ditch thanks for the education, Seriously, I think I got more out of that than I did in college, and this was free :eek:

Hamj
10-26-2005, 11:24 AM
Great info you two!! I really like the smolt info Flyguy.

Fish Tech
10-26-2005, 01:02 PM
FYI : All steelhead and skamania stocked into the Salmon River System recieve a finclip as follows:

Washington Strain Steelhead - left ventral clip or a combination clip of adipose and left vental.

Skamania Strain Steelhead - combination clip of left pectoral and adipose.

Any unmarked steelhead/rainbow you catch in the Salmon River is either:
1) a stray steelhead that was stocked in a different L.O. trib.
2) a wild steelhead produced in ****** or Trout Brooks.

gman2153
10-26-2005, 01:16 PM
the pectorals are near the gills
the ventrals are also called pelvic fins

what is the adipose fin. - location on fish? Is it the anal fin?

Spade
10-26-2005, 01:27 PM
the pectorals are near the gills
the ventrals are also called pelvic fins

what is the adipose fin. - location on fish? Is it the anal fin?

It's the small one between the dorsal and the tail.

stackmend
10-26-2005, 05:39 PM
Another misconception you hear all the time is that one fish caught(darkly colored) has been in a long time while the next fish caught( bright fish with a pink hue on the gill plate) has just come in. What isn't noted is that the first fish is a masle and the second is female. They may very well have come in the same day, males just tend to darken much more a faster.

Ditchrat
10-26-2005, 06:59 PM
Another misconception you hear all the time is that one fish caught(darkly colored) has been in a long time while the next fish caught( bright fish with a pink hue on the gill plate) has just come in. What isn't noted is that the first fish is a masle and the second is female. They may very well have come in the same day, males just tend to darken much more a faster.

Or they are spawned out, drop backs start getting chrome again before leaving the river

stackmend
10-26-2005, 07:46 PM
Also a possibility.