flyguy... (and others)

[toolmaker66]

Been meaning to ask this question for awhile but always seem to remember after I am online lol... I know you are one of the traditional streamer swingers. I have tried traditional flyfishing the SR many times and have had sucess, but... I end up foul hooking alot of fish with this method. Seems like I get alot of fish in the tail and alot more in the dorsal fin. This is one of the main reasons I abandoned the swing. Anyway here is my question. When foul hooking fish what do you do different in your setup? I add weight to obviously get my fly down and before long it turns into a C&D with the weight required. From what I read it seems like you swing with no weight? Are there any rules of thumb you use to adjust your presentation to prevent foul hooked fish? Any info is appreciated. Also, be ouuta town a few days enjoying some fishing in upstae Ny with my grandfather so I might not reply right away. Thanks for any input from anyone....

[Craig]

With so many fish this time of year it's unavoidable. After the Salmon are gone it's generaly not a problem. If you've been hooking kings in the fins, you're probaly about a foot off the bottom (perfect for steel!). As far as technique goes....you already know the drill better than most Toolie. To get depper just angle your cast upstream a bit and mend it down deeper.

If you realy want to get into swinging you gotta get into density compensated sink tips............and if you realy want to get into dc sink tips.......you gotta use two hands.

Throwing sink tips with a regular fly rod sucks! Strip line in...look for room behind you...double haul...shoot line. Repeat steps 1-4 untill your arms and brain explode!

I'm definitely still a hack with the big stick, but spey rods are definitely the way to swing tips. There isn't too much relevant info here in the east, but I've picked up quite a bit from the guys out west. You just gotta take the info on the PNW boards and disect it to see what'll work here. At this point in time, it's kind of a teach yourself affair here in the east. I'd be more than happy to recomend rods, lines, ect., but as I get better my opinions are changing quick on equipment..........the recomendation I make today......will most likely be different in 6 months.

[flyguy]

My basic and most used presentation is a combination of two presentations acually--but more on that in a bit. Let me go into detail, grab some coffee.

First, I do not use any weight on my leader and only rarely will I use a head of any sort. If I do, I use home-made heads built from lead core in 1, 2, 4 and 6-foot lengths. They'll get put between my butt and taper or between the fly-line and leader Usually thes are used for late-spring steelhead when I am not nymph-fishing for them. I use a WFF line and a 9-foot or so leader. The lightest tippet is 10# (usually Maxima). On occassion I'll use 3X RIO which is 9.4# and this is to boost sink rates if need be. My leaders are 3-part leaders, all Maxima or some other stiff nylon. 25# butt, 20#-15# taper. Then I tip-out at 15#, 12# or 10#. Usually my tippet length is 2-3 feet to boost sink rates and maximize action.

Next, my flies are very large--the fish see them coming and either bite them or get out of the way. I look a great deal to plug fishermen and why they do so well. They aggrevate the aggressive fish using very large lures. Now, it's impossible for me to mimic that presentation (as of now--I have some ideas) but I can use the basis of it. I show my big, hot flies to the fish with a strong profile and I get it in front of them as often as I can and for as long as I can....A traditional down and across swing is not ideal.

My flies are either unweighted, or lightly weighted. My #4 comets are the heaviest with XL bead chain eyes and maybe 10 wraps of .035" lead in the thorax only. Keep in mind that these puppies are as long as big Kwickfish (hint-hint) so the long tails impeded sinking. Whenever you weight a fly, the materials you use and the bouyant nature of the fly (long wings or tails) will counteract the weight. They do not drop to the bottom. My other patterns (Flash Flies and Lite-Brites) are used when more fish are running and the shallow(er) water becomes more attractive.

Now, my water selection is important. I prefer to select pocketwater that will not hold big pods whenever I can. Small oxygenated pockets of 4-6 fish will be far mroe productive than big pods in the pools. This is just by the nature of the fish. I fish as low in the river as I can find these conditions. If I cannot find these conditions (like yesterday when very, very few fish came in) I then walk and walk until I can find idolated pockets of fish that are not getting any pressure. Here, I am careful to be sure my guests place the offering just above eyelevel, or inside, of the fish. If I am too concerned of too many fish or presentation ability--then I'll use circle hooks.

So--how I avoid foul-hooking fish involves the following considerations:

1. I do not tightline swing a heavy fly or weighted line (more in a minute)
2. I stress the importance of keeping the fly just above the fish or just inside. A salmon will not attack down--they will attack in front, up or to the side.
3. Circle hooks are valuable when fish are in the river in huge numbers.
4. Avoid the temptation to combat fish the large pools with large pods of fish. These fish are not the best tartgets.
5. Look to the plug angler for a valid example on how to trigger these fish. I have even started modifying my patterns based on the color schemes of the good plugs. MOst have some type of hot, bright contrasting color up front. I call them hot-spots.
6. I use very large flies so that the fish will obviously see them and either attack or move.
7. RePeat: I DO NOT tightline swing with heavy flies or weighted lines---the big belly will pull the fly cross-current and you WILL snag fish. Unacceptable.

Now--my presentation is like so 90% of the time:

I obtain a position across from or just above the fish, or where I think they are (I do sight fish as I find it very exciting, btu I will also fish the water--you need to be versatile and able to use the whole river, any river). My cast will be in-line with the fish but well upstream. The first part of the drift is entirely slack lined..I instruct my folks to focus on the tip of the fly line which will be laying on the water. I want the fly to drift to the fish with a strong profile..sideways or 3/4 down. Not head or tail first and not coming cross current. I want it going right at the fish--this will be most aggressive and irritating. If the fish takes you will see the line stop and straighten. If you can see the fish, you will see one fish start shaking it's head. If you do not strike, a belly will form and either the hook will stick or the fish will feel the tension and eject the fly.

One addendum: It is VERY effective to look for a small pod of fish in a boulder pocket or plunge pool. In this case a long upstream cast will not be the best--the best will be a tuck cast just in front of the fish so that the fly just "appears" in their face. Almost 100% strike rate if you can find these condtions and make the cast.

Back to the slack-line....If a fish does not take on the slack line, we will allow the fly to rise at the tail of the drift up and across in front of the fish. About 10% of the takes will be here--that up and across motion will trigger fish. This is different than a down and across swing. If you are familiar with the Leisenring Lift then this is it.

So--slack line from upstream until the fly has passed in front and rod tip is almost directly downriver. Then the fly is allowed to rise up and sightly across. Fly should be just above the fish or to the inside.

I have had at least one fish every day this season come up to take a fly just undr the surface--either as soon as the cast is made or at that final rise at the end.

Lastly--I will never have days where my rods get bent 30 or 40 times except for the rarest of days when all the moons are lined-up. My techniques work but they do not appeal to everyone. That is OK with me. We do enjoy each and every fish that we fool. FWIW: My guests yesterday hooked 8 fish. I think it's a good day in anyone's book to have played with 8 of these beasts.

[gman2153]

You explain things very well Loren.... and I can tell by reading that post that you truly enjoy sharing your knowledge with others..

Thanks for the great information.

[goat ball]

WOW! Great read!

Thanks for the insight Loren.

[onemorecast]

Excellent read thanks, but you hardly ever use sinktips?

[coach]

Great post. One question, how do you join the sink tip to the fly line?

[flyguy]

onemorecast:

Hardly if ever for salmon.

Coach:

I set up my fly line as follows:

I nail-knot a 12 inch section of 30# mono. To the other end I tie Perfection Loop.

If I want to add a min-head to my leader I can remove the leader and loop the mini-head in (I build them with loops on both ends). Then I will install a very short (3 or 4 foot) stout leader and tie on my fly. Or, I'll cut off the taper of my leader and tie a Perfection loop at the end of my leader butt (3' of 25#). Then I loop my head (usually the 1 ro 2-foot heads) then a 3 or 4 foot stout leader to my fly.

[Linescreamer]

That's what I'm talking about :) !!

[gman2153]

Question from a running line added shot guy:

Are them sink tips considered "added weight" subject to the leader length rule?

just curious...

[flyguy]

I knew that was going to come up.

I assume they are, but have never received a straight answer on how they measure them--and I may be in trouble if they measure from the top if the tip versus the bottom. I'm making an honest attempt to stay within the law when I use them. If they make me stop then I'll stop. I do not use them enough to matter.

[Craydaddy]

Thanks for the infor man. That is a wild way to fish for them! I don't want to be a pain but if you have no weight on your leader, just fly line, leader fly, is there a law in how long that can be????

[flyguy]

Cray:

Not quite sure of your question but my interpretation of the law, outside the fly zones on the SR, is that there is no maximum leader length between your fly line and weighted fly. 15-feet in the fly zones.

The longest entire leader I have ever used is 12-feet for winter steelhead to get deep with my nymphs.

If you are referring to the mini-head, it's never been an issue for me since going with a long leader behind a weighted head defeats the prupose of the head.

[Craydaddy]

Cray:

is that there is no maximum leader length between your fly line and weighted fly. 15-feet in the fly zones.



You answered it. If your interperatation is correct that answered my question. Thanks! :D

[AceFrehley]

If your interperatation is correct that answered my question. Thanks! :D

Was the question " Is my life going to end when I get married and have kids?"

The answer is YUP!!!! LMFAO

[toolmaker66]

Thanks for taking the time to answer Flyguy. very good info you provided.

[Silvertonedevil]

Excellent post Flyguy .Thanks for the hint!

[flyguy]

I just got done shooting video of this very complicated, high skilled ;) technique to take these fish that will not attack flies (note sarcasm). Once it get's formatted (had to outsource it, I'm just a fisherman) I'll post a clip or two on my Website. Goal was to get at least one uncut sequence showing the presentation, take, fight, land, unhook and release. Got some good video of how to lose fish too :).

[Stonefly]

Very cool Flyguy - Cant wait to see it... Hope your going to include the out takes of the long distance release's.. LOL

[100$Bill]

Flyguy, Thank you for sharing your technique and success. I fish with noodle, pin but can't wait start using my flyrod and Flyline more often this season.

Thank.

B.