Any thoughts.....

[troutz99]

First off new to this site, seems like a good bunch of people on here.

I was just thinking about what this upcoming season may bring the to the SR.Usually most everyone has thoughts or even predictions.Like last year because of a cool wet summer everyone thought a big early run.Which really never happened as I recall some big water last fall in September.

Just a few years ago the SR had runs that started in the middle of August and they just didnt stop coming.Nature has its cycles, I am thinking its going to be one of those years where they just dont stop coming.Everyone will have big smiles on their faces.I dont think it will be anyone saying " well you should've been here yesterday or last week"

Those are just my thoughts for right now just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or predictions for the upcoming fall.Also has anyone heard how they're doing on the lake with the kings??? I got a report about 2 weeks ago they were hitting them but almost all of them were jacks.In about 150 FOW.

So to end I'm no longer " lurking " so to speak and took the plunge and joined :p

[champlain fisher]

I don't think about how many fish will come up or if it will be a super year or not. Don't get pumped up about tons of fish to be had because that way if there is not you won't be as upset. It seems to be a timing thing at getting into fish up until a certain point and then there are fish in, just have to find them. If you need to have a bend in the rod all the time to enjoy the trip then you are giong to be upset more times than not. One thing for sure is when you do get into the fish on the SR there is nothing like it!!

[toolmaker66]

Based on the pro/am tourney last weekend I'd say we are in for a real good year. My buddy even boated 2 steelies around 15 lbs. in that tourney. They had a great weekend, lots of fish, some big ones too and think they only placed 10th.

[champlain fisher]

Tool was that the mayor ;) that you know from Dexter on that boat? Tell him I said hey next time you see him and I will run into him again soon.

[Ditchrat]

Usually most everyone has thoughts or even predictions.Like last year because of a cool wet summer everyone thought a big early run.Which really never happened as I recall some big water last fall in September.


So to end I'm no longer " lurking " so to speak and to the plunge and joined :p
First glad to have you being active, welcome. I look forward to reading your post

As for prediction, who needs them. Finding out when the fish are going to be running hard, is possible and its not that hard.

Here is how I go about doing it. First look on every board(I have contacts to call and call me) you can find and read the lake guys posts. Youll hear the fish are in 80 ft, 50 ft and so on. Now get ready! Then you hear the fishing is slowing up. That mean the stomachs of the salmon are changing into sex organs. Then look for report of people not marking fish any more. This is the fun part, call out of work and drive like hell.

So now the fish are running, how do you predict a good push on the river. Here are acouple of good indicators.

The easist is a rise in water from rain or release, check the usgs gages. But we all know that one.

If no release is occuring, check the wind. This is for the salmon river but grab a chart/map and adjust the directions for the trib you want to fish. Watch for a good blow from the west to the east, after several days of this the water on the lake gets pushed over to the eastern basin and cause the river water to back up slightly, in the lower reaches. This causes the fish to think that the river is higher then it is. By the time they enter the river and find out the truth they dont care an mover up quick. Alot of times this weather condition results in a 3-4 pm push through the black hole up to the ballpark. (normally a trickle of fish followed by the whole shabang) This effect is very important in the tribs on seasons of lower rainfall.

Something related to this but not known to the average fisherman is a sieche effect. The best way to explain this is to fill a pan with water an rock it back and forth. The water sloshes back and forth, resulting in a tidal like effect. Except it last for days, weeks, or months on some lakes. When the highside of the seiche hits the mouth of the rivers it backs up the water and bingo a false feeling of high water, and then a push of fish. This effect is harder to track. If you know what your looking for you can track water levels around a lake and predict the seiche. If the high side occurs when the fish are staged to enter the river then its on. This is also important on the tribs and for steelhead in the fall.

Have acouple of these things occurr at the same time and its as close to a sure thing as your goning to get. (its still not though)

Early runs are normally seiche effects in late aug. then agian in oct.

Good luck and I hope this helps. Post any questions and I'll get your an answer. Maybe not the right one ;) , but an answer

[JStreamside]

What to reeeeaaaalllly hammer them???? Take off from work and say screw it from Sept 15 thru the end of October!!! Guaranteed fish!!! :D

[troutz99]

Ditch~~~~

You bring up some interesting stuff.Like you mentioned about boats marking fish in certain FOW , also I like hearing reports from the lake they're starting to catch them out of temperture.But when they get closer to the mouth of the river and the boats arent catching them its time to go.On a side note when I have ventured up and have taken a drive down to the estuary to see whats happening.It's sad to see several boats right on pods of fish.Looks like they were herding cattle or something.

I think these fish spook badly and just want to run and hide somewhere ,sometimes I've heard they go back out to the lake.And wait it out til theres not much pressure on them.

As well as wind direction, baromeric pressure plays a roll as well.Maybe even moon phases, water temp ..etc..But most of us know that the fish will come its all up to them as to when.

With the other guys who added some thoughts on this I too just know I am going to have a great time on the water regardless if the fish are there or not.Thats fishing.I just wanted to see what some people thought as to why,and when these fish move upstream.

Thanks for the info

[woolybugger65]

welcome troutz99, you'll enjoy this site.

ditch, where the heck did you learn all of that crap? thanks for teaching me something today. very interesting post!

[Browntrout5]

That was great info Ditch. Do you think water temps in both the tribs and the lake have anything to do with triggering the run? I was also wondering if the amount of day light might have something to do with it. It affects a lot of other animal's movement and migration patterns. It seems like the peak of the run is when we are losing the most amount of daylight each day.

[Ditchrat]

Wooly,

Im a Marine Scientist and a Aquatic Biologist. I grew up reading everything fish involved because I wanted to be an Icthyologist. PBS and the discovery channel helped alot. Years of making and noting observations on fishing conditions helps alot. My training in the scientific methoed helps peacing together unrelated facts. The one thing that I would love to do is tag some fish caught in DSR or the black hole area with GPS locators then track the fish upriver. No guess work involved in finding that school.
Im glad I can help.

Browntrout5,

Do you think water temps in both the tribs and the lake have anything to do with triggering the run? I was also wondering if the amount of day light might have something to do with it. It affects a lot of other animal's movement and migration patterns. It seems like the peak of the run is when we are losing the most amount of daylight each day.

All of that has some part in triggering a run. Water temp plays a lesser role, then most people think. The river temp doesnt make as much difference as does the temparound the mouth of the river, since a fish has know way of knowing the temp upstream is cooler then at the mouth. Diurnal cycles (day/night) play a role as it is the animals version of a clock/calander. Some people may notice brown trout spawning in the spring or rainbows spawning in the fall, this is because hatcheries(some) change the light level on trout to acheive a uniform spawn time for stocking. It takes a season or two for them to get re-adjusted to natural spawn times. This is one reason rainbows dont have large numbers of natural fish(the get fished out by the time they adjust) and brown do(can).

We are already losing light at the same rate as in the fall. It mostlikely has more to do with having not enough light to warm the water up each day. So we end up with a decline temperature in th river. In the past we have spoken here about 42 degrees being the magic temp for steelhead. If you look you'll see that when the water temp is 42 degrees in the morning, and climbs all day, then cools off to 42 (or alittle higher) at night this is when the steelies are really hitting good. Mostly early spawned fish (not dropbacks yet) and spawning males. Just after these temps when the spawnings are just about done (for the bulk of the fish) is when the drop backs start. Normally the afternoon temps on the river are 45-47 degrees. Whitickers post temps but with out knowing when they are taken its hard to get a good picture.



Some lake Ontario tribs have summer running and spawning king salmon populations. The salmon river has a few (very few), but in the end of this month through aug some fish are seen. By the end of aug. we see early falls and cant tell the difference between fall and summer. Trout brook has a winter run of coho's in Dec, but these fish are undocument (nobody has thought to look). I have seen/caught these fish 3 or 4 time in the last 10 years when walking the creek to get to the river for steelhead fishing. The nice thing about these fish is that they stay brighter until they get further up the creek.

Just like they said in Jurasic park "nature aways finds a way"

Keep the questions coming I'd be glad to answer then

On a side note browntrout5. Kept a good eye on the rain forcasting for the worchester area. The quabin and wachusett reservoirs both have atlantic runs in the fall, normally after the first good rain in late Sept/early oct till early nov.

[JStreamside]

Ditch...that's some of the best (and might I add) non-BS info on run-timing as it equates to weather patterns and trends. There are those that will post more garbage than could fill our local dump just try to "impress" or influence new-comers to pick up a guide trip or two. Man, you should write a book on this 'cause you certainly have got the skinny on it! And I didn't just float up on the beach yesterday...great stuff Ditch, thanks for sharing with some of the new guys and those that have been around a while.

As far as my post in this thread about taking 6-weeks off from work etc., I'm sure we all wish we could do something of the sort. In all seriousness, if you're new to the site and to the salmon game, flexibility in your schedule helps a lot. I've gone on just a day's notice, but if you have to plan in advance, take 3 or 4 days (if you can) and try to pick a time in the middle of a week, rather than the weekend.

Boat traffic will be down on the lake and there will be far less fishermen on the stream. Have several back-up plans ready for spots to hit and if possible, avoid the big-name holes on the SR. If the fish are in and on the move, you'll have a lot more room to fish and a lot more fun. As far as any specific tips, mine would be paint your split shot black as the fish can't pick them out nearly as easy. If you fly fish, try a super hi-D sink tip line like a the Teeny mini-tips or Chuck-n-Duck lines. Under certain flows, you won't need any split shot at all.

[Carpy]

Just go as much as possible from early sept-early october for kings. Create a few friends from the board to let you know whats up on the river and you will get into fish. You could end up like me, getting 10 text messages at work one day telling you toolmaker and cray got into 30 some fish before 2pm. Actually, that was about all my fishing consisted of last season. Its enough to drive you nuts.

[Ditchrat]

Thanks for the kind words jstreamside. I've caught so many salmon in my life that there is little challange anymore. My best trip last year was helping someone land their first salmon last year. Me and Rustyboy must have hooked 60+++ fish(getting very board without chrome around) and this kid was hooking a few by lifting. Not trying to snag them but thats what he was doing. After him bumming a smoke from me (as I was breaking for lunch) I got a chance to explain to him how to rig his shot and present a fly to fish holding. A little later he hooked up and we netted his first salmon ever for him as it tried to break out of the pool and head for the rapids. Sure enough the fish was hooked in the mouth. The fish may have been just lined (Id put even money that is was), but the kid thought it hit and it was in the mouth. A couple pics later the fish swims off and the kid goes back to fish. A few hours go by and I walk back up to the pool and watched the kid. Sure enough he was hooking fish without trying to snag them. Maybe he was just getting better at lining them, but who cares he was trying to do it right and was getting rewarded. Now at least I help one guy develop hope that salmon hit. Thats what the best part of fishing is(for me). Thats what my father has past on to me (hes doing much better today). So Im glad that I can share with the newbies and the vets.
As for planning, I never plan any salmon trips. Everything is run and gun when the conditions look right

[JStreamside]

Ditch...you took the words right out of my mouth. I've been there to see all of my friends, dad and wife catch their first trout and/or salmon. Just being able to share the experience with them, see the huge smiles on their face and to have sincere thanks like..."I did it, I did it...just look at the size of that thing!"..."Even though I didn't land a single fish, it was the best day I've ever had on the water"..."I really appreciate you taking time out of your day on the water to teach me."

You know, those are the days I remember and cherish the most now...not how many more fish I was able to hook and land. I was truely fortunate to have a grandfather, dad and two uncles that couldn't get enough fishing (trout fishing especially) in during the year. They all taught me what they could and I kind of took the best from each. I guess the proof is in the pudding when you pass experience and information on to another and they succeed...shows we were listening when someone taught us.

[gman2153]

That mean the stomachs of the salmon are changing into sex organs.

Ditch:
Good info you posted.. But the sentence above you typed has me scratchin my head... What I have read/heard in the past is that their throats swell shut as they start going through the spawning phase of their lives...

But I never heard of actual organ functional changes in Salmon.
Perhaps you typed this wrong. If not can you elaborate further?

Thanks

[Ditchrat]

But I never heard of actual organ functional changes in Salmon.
Perhaps you typed this wrong. If not can you elaborate further?

Thanks


Gman,

Its is just a simplier and easier way to descibe this to people. The more drawn out version of this is;


Months to weeks proir to spawning energy dispersal priority is shifted from feeding and growth to reproduction and egg/sperm development. Reproductive organs in salmon begin to recieve addition blood flow and as a result the organ/s begin to mature and develop. At the same time there is a reduction in the blood flow to the feeding organs and thus a reduction of its size. Like any mussle in people you would expect it to visable shrink. I believe that this shrinkage would cause a constriction in the throat and maybe the apperence of swelling you described. The shrinkage also helps to create room in the abdominal cavity for the eggs. In my limited experience with disecting salmon, I've found the the organs of the fish are position slightly different(kind of pushed around abit) in spawning and non spawning fish.
So basiclly its a priority shift, so its easy to say one replaces the other. In a sense one does replace the other in terms of energy use and priority.

[woolybugger65]

well ditch, you've done it again. 2 days in a row i learned something. i suggest to Lil that we give you an offical title on this site!

[Fish-N-Chip]

Thanks for posting so much useful info Ditch. Very interesting and informative!! I learned quite a bit.

Chip

[cliff-OH]

Absolutely the best run info I've seen, and your credentials are impeccable: education and experience. I'm a bit a victim of having to time the run according to when I can get away from Ohio (wife's OK with it, job and other commitments like working football games and attending the SCCA runoffs definitely screw things up through November) ... so I usually end up a day or two off hitting the big runs ... but, good times are better August through October if one can fish Tuesday through Thursday, IMHO. Thanks again for the info! -- Cliff

[goat ball]

Doctor Ditch!! Graduate Suma cum latte of salmonoid university!! Nice piece ditch! I hope all of you members appreciate the info. I sure do.:) I have been fishing these tribs for 25+ years, and I learned something! I'm no expert by any means.


:cool:

Goat.

[floatfisher]

Good info Ditch!!! Just catching up on all the posts, was a busy weekend.

Ditch, I was always under the impression that photoperiodism had alot more to play in the run timing than you stated, second only to amount of water in the harbour areas?!?! Learned some good stuff.

I am like you and J, the best part of fishing for me anymore is helping others catch that fish of a life time and making memories happen!!! I cant wait to make those memories with my kids when they get older, and learn to respect the water!!!

[Ditchrat]

=photoperiodism had alot more to play in the run timing than you stated, second only to amount of water in the harbour areas?!?!


Photoperiodism is like telling your wife(at least mine) were going to have sex in Oct. Then whenever she feels in the mood it happens. Otherwise the fish run would occur on the same day every year