Very intresting

[gottum]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/news-0/110552261826400.xml

[Lil Salmon]

Well isn't that interesting. Does that mean we will have more river to fish?


-Lil'

[Craig]

HOLY CRAP!!!! For once I'm speachless.

[Green Hornet]

Whitakers is going to have to start selling brass knuckles!!! Bring your cameras....it should be good!!!

[gottum]

Well, I guess it won't be going into the hands of someone who would like to charge to fish. Or be buyin up the whole dang river anytime soon. Think he won't? Imagine how much he could charge than.

[gman2153]

hmmm, if they stop charging and close down the shack,

I wonder what my girlfriend at the DSR's next Job is going to be.

Most Likely WWF Pro Wrestling.... Men's Disvison of Course....

oh yeah.....

Since I do not post over to that other site anymore (FishSalmonRiver.com) can someone please,please, please post that article there ... so I can log on later and read what they say (The Sky is Falling!!!!) LMAO....

[AceFrehley]

I dunno, call me stupid but I didn't get the idea from the article in the Post-Standard ( my morning on the can reading material ) that this was going to effect the DSR...as far as opening up more fishing areas to us on the DSR....did I misread someting?


Ace

[gottum]

It won't effect the DSR but let's say it won't be expanding any time soon.

[Craydaddy]

Where else is there 2500 acres of shore line on the salmon river that is privately owned?? That is what makes me beleive that it is the DSR.

[gman2153]

Clarks Falls Area ??? North Side

[Lil Salmon]

I read it as they were going to open up more areas to the SR... although I would love to see Douglason lose his ability to charge for public river access.... I didn't read it that way. Anyone have some clarification on the article?

-Lil'

[Lil Salmon]

What part of the river is privately owned besides the DSR? I thought it was all open?


P.S. I can easily see this being the longest thread in the history of the site :)

-Lil'

[gottum]

NIMO owned almost the entire mid-upper river at one time. Over the last few years they have been selling tracks of land here and there from Redfield to Pulaski. They have also been giving land to the state as well. The remaining land along the river is most likley several sections of the mid-upper river. It could have been sold to anyone.

[Bluefin]

I was once told I think by the owner of Salmon River Sports that there are several areas from basically the Pineville ramp down to the Paper Hole that were privately owned. He also told me although no public right of way was ever granted, tresspassing laws were never enforced in those areas as long as you were fishing or were within 100 feet or so of the water. I have seen no trespassing signs on the hike up to Clarks on the north side of the river and along some stretches on the other side in the same general area.

[Green Hornet]

This past October, I was asked to leave the Clarks falls area. The guy wasn't a jerk about it.....There were no posters though.

[ReininBows]

Hmmmm I have permission to fish Clark's Falls area, but there are signs posted Green, the guys there ain't jerks, they are great guys! All my salmon from late Sept. came outta just above the falls. Maybe bein a woman does have it's perks LOL :p

[Green Hornet]

I was on the South side of the river just around the tip of the Papermill pool ledge....I didn't see any signs. Once again, the guy was very nice about it.

[gman2153]

part of the article:
I'm happy with the DEC getting the property," said Assemblyman Will Barclay, R-Pulaski, Barclay's son. "I haven't talked to my father about it, but I assume he'd be pleased."
********************************************


I can't help but wonder, if the DSR is not affected, why does the article give such attention to DSR and Barclay's reaction?

I guess we all have to stay tuned..

[Lil Salmon]

that was my curiousity. why make such a big deal about the DSR if it wasn't directly effected.

[gottum]

Because then the property won't get sold to a private individual with intentions of charging to access. When the whole pay to fish came out many folks in the area thought that it was just a matter of time before more of the river would end up as pay areas. When Nimo started selling it's tracts of land around the river who do you think would like to buy it up & have enough money/incentive? Of course it will also keep the river from being built next to.
Just my 2 cents

[Craydaddy]

Sounds like a lot of area to be opened up so it is easier access for us!

[coolrobc]

From what I can find this is a settlement between Nimo and the state, The land was owned by NIMO nothing to do with DSR (owned by Barclay). Here's a copy of the press release from the governors office:

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/year05/jan11_05.htm

Take a look at paragraphs 10-11...

I think the only reason that they mentioned the DSR is becasue of the pay to fish issue. From what I understand the state already acquired angler access from NIMO for the property they own along the river. I'm not sure that this will actually mean an increase in access. Just that the state owns the land and it probably won't be sold and developed.

If someone knows something I don't please correct me.

[Lil Salmon]

Thanks Rob :) Your always on top of things!

-Lil'

[coolrobc]

Hey c'mon.... some of us actually have to work :p NEVER underestimate the power of the handicaped!;)

[ReininBows]

Ohhhhh man LMAO

[Craydaddy]

Lmfao!!!!

[gottum]

Coolrobc-
That's pretty much the way I understood it. It also basically secures our right to free access throughout the mid-upper river. The state will gradually improve some access and some trails. very cool

[champlain fisher]

I don't believe that anyone should be able to charge for someone to fish on a body of water that gets stocked with fish that the public has paid to raise and get stocked :mad: . If they charge for access to those fish then they should help flip the bill for the cost of getting the fish in there. To me that is a misuse of the publics money and someone else gets to line their pockets at the publics expense. Thats coparate America for you.

[metalslayer]

Almost all boat launches charge you to put in----so you are paying to fish.I happen to like the pay to fish.Do I like to shell out the $,no, but it does limit some of the BS on some prime h2o.Well worth it in my opinion.

[champlain fisher]

I understand what you are saying about controlling the BS. But in the case where you pay to launch a boat some of that money goes to the upkeep of the launch site. Also it is not just fisherman that pay, the joy boaters pay their share also. With charging people to access the water to fish an area that is stocked with public money none of it goes to the fishery, it ends up in someones pocket.

[9 wt]

I'll agree that because the DRS is private and there are rules to follow (or you get booted) it is a nice place to fish. But the problem is it's "private and there are rules to follow". Who's to say the fees couldn't triple? or cut the numbers of passes in half? or close it completely except for a few corporate cronnies?

Right now everything seems reasonable but that could change at any moment or when the land changes hands to his kids.

[metalslayer]

9wt---I don't see the prob.---You just do what you'd do if any other private store,bar,club,ect. shut down-------go somewhere else.

[ecsteelheader]

I would go back to the "FORBIDDEN ZONE" DSR if they'd get rid of the renta wardens and not watch you like a prisoner, it is nice water,,but i know other free spots,,lets not forget GMANS girlfriend the most beautiful Conny :eek: >))>

[Spade]

There is quite a bit of the Salmon river located above the Redfield reservoir. The North branch, East branch, Mad river, ect. I wonder if some of the 2500 acres is located up there. It isn't salmon or steelhead water, but does hold wild trout,... tiny, wild trout.

[9 wt]

9wt---I don't see the prob.---You just do what you'd do if any other private store,bar,club,ect. shut down-------go somewhere else.
Hey Metal!
We rarely fish the DRS but imagine if all of those fisherman who do now had to go somewhere else to fish. :eek:

[gman2153]

Hey Metal!
We rarely fish the DRS but imagine if all of those fisherman who do now had to go somewhere else to fish. :eek:

Then the LFZ would truly look like a Circus Act!!!!
Ever see the stunt where 30 Clowns climb out of a VW Bug?

Well my fish-chasing friends, call the Guiness Book people, cause you ain't seen nothing yet....

They would have to build multi-level casting platforms - like the golfing ones the Japanese have....

mmm, I wonder if "SOME" Guides would charge more to have you casting from the upper deck :rolleyes:

[9 wt]

Ever see the stunt where 30 Clowns climb out of a VW Bug?


Yup, last year...Columbus Day weekend at the LFZ. :D
And the most famous trick of the day was to hook a fish in the LFZ, let it take you below the bridge, around the corner, land it and hang it on your buddies stringer who's fishing down there.

[gottum]

Not much different from what goes on all winter. Guys hook, land release fish repeatedly and then they end up tired below the bridge. Someone's bound to catch them again, then string em up. Year after year and wonder why our runs have diminished :mad:

[stackmend]

Leave the people that fish in the lfz alone. If they're happy fishing in those crowds more power to them. Myself having started fishing the SR in the late 70s I get claustrifobic(sp) now on the mid river without them.

[gman2153]

you know, Shane has a point that reveals the true oxymoron of the LFZ.
Alot of them guys see themselves as FF purists, and think they are doing a good thing by fishing the LFZ C&R waters.

But just think how many fish end up just like Shane described, without the assistance of some lamebrain that drags them beneath the bridge then ropes them.

After 15 rounds of boxing, any Man or Fish, has had enough and cannot stand or swim in one place...(For many Steelies, their fate is to be washed down the Rte 52 drain onto someone's rope.

just my 3 1/2 cents...

[bigredfishing]

i love driving by the LFZ when it a zoo and then hiking to the gorgeous water above sportsmen, and having huge stretches of the river to myself...i leave the LFZ alone till all them freakin' snotty purists get their orvis wearin' asses out of there.

[woolybugger65]

i am only a 4 year veteran of the SR but i have never seen anyone drag a fish down below the bridge. boy, does that take a set of balls. i hope i never see, i will flip the f... out. i just saw on "someone elses" site where there is a phone number to report a violation. maybe i should go get it and post it.

[woolybugger65]

here it is:
toll free number (1-877-457-5680) for reporting
violations.
i hope i didn't overstep my boundries on this site.

Wooly - unless you believe the earth is flat (Like Columbus' critics back in 1492) you have to step pretty far over the line to go out of bounds here. (college rules - only one foot in bounds is required)

Advice - if you operate a boat , do a bit better than Colombus, after all , he thought he was in the Bahamas somewhere when in fact he landed way way North on the mainland!!! :D

[bigredfishing]

i fish near the bridge (above and below) occasionally during off times, and i have seen a number of fish being "taken around the corner". Most recently saw a guy in early november take a dark steely down around the corner to schoolhouse, and put it on a stringer down there.

[gottum]

Even though it sucks, I believe the FFZs should remain open. However they should have shorter seasons and tighter restrictions - such as no weight allowed. Traditional fly fishing only, and get a few DEC officers to keep a closer eye on the area. If the water is low close it down as to protect the fish. I would say the vast majority of fly fishermen are very ethical and they would know certain changes would be a positive step for the whole fishery.
I grew up flyfishing on the Farmington river in Ct. and much of that water is now C&R. Adding weight to me is not flyfishing- it is catching fish with a flyrod. PERIOD

[stackmend]

No weight in fly fishing only areas. Count me in. Maybe that would keep the lifters out. They really seem proud that they figured out how to snag with fly rods.
It should open no earlier than oct 1 because the water temp is usually dangerously high until at least then. I have stood on the bridge and personaly counted 9 steelhead floating on thier side flushed downstream. Some people seem to think it is more sporting to use 5x tippit and play fish to death than it is to figure out how to get them to bite on 8 or 10# line. I personaly haven't gone under 8# since the introduction of florocarbon.

[9 wt]

No weight in fly fishing only areas. Count me in. Maybe that would keep the lifters out. They really seem proud that they figured out how to snag with fly rods.


I don't know if that's a solution. Sometimes you need weight to flyfish. I hate the thought of how far this regulation stuff can go. Next thing there are regulations on line diameter, color of flies, etc. you get my drift.
I think enforcement is the only answer. You get thousands of fisherman every year and some are going to cheat. Word gets around they are busting people and everybody starts fishing nice. I know, the state doesn't have enough cash to police the river??? can you imagine the dollars they collect every year in out of state licenses just because of the SR? Heck I'd be willing to be required to buy a special stamp to fish the SR, say an extra $10. All the extra cash goes into enforcement of the SR.

[gottum]

Wet line forward sinking? Maybe leadcore leader- ok wieghted flies alright but no lead or other attachable wieght and then you may call it fly fishing. Other wise it's catching a fish with the fly rod. Certainly not traditional, just my opinion though.

[gman2153]

Heck I'd be willing to be required to buy a special stamp to fish the SR, say an extra $10. All the extra cash goes into enforcement of the SR.

I agree with you, BUT

the both of us are dreaming.

Give the state oficails an extra $10 next year, and within 6 months they will publicize budget shortfalls, enforcement staff cutbacks, yada,yada. Then the next year add another $10, and the next, and the next.

Pretty soon we will be mortgaging our homes just to be able to buy a license.

I think it sad, but true. (Never offer a politician extra anything - you will be tossing your coins into a bottomless pit of greed and deception).

[stackmend]

I've been fishing home made sink tips for years and in less than 750cfs have had no problem. With more water than that its time to get out the drift or bobber rod cause it ain't fly fishin no more (IMHO). 350cfs or less and a floating line with a heavy hook and a low water tied fly is all that is needed. Stackmend is the name and the way to get your fly deep in a hurry without resorting to a bunch of added weight. :D

[fishingallday]

couple things:1. not everyone that adds weight snags. 2. even if they did make a no added weight rule, snaggers are still snaggers and will figure out another way. 3. if i'm not dry fly fishing, then 1 add some weight just to get my presentation down quickly into the strike zone. adding weight is an accetable practice in "traditional fly fishing", when fishing other than dry flies.

i add some weight maybe 2 split shot, so you can consider me a "chuck and ducker". do i intenionally snag fish? NO, becuase my father taught me better than that. have i ever hooked a fish in other than the lips? yes, but not on purpose. it's not uncommon when a couple hundred salmon are either sitting in one pool or running throught the same transition water, to hook a few in the arse. i can honestly say that 95% of my hook-ups are biters. LOL i am not one of those guys that goes 2 for 50! my, #'s are more like 1 for 1 or 2 for 2, except during the peak salmon season when the #'s obviously go up. i have never foul hooked a steelhead or coho. it always seems to be those kings that just run "willy-nilly" into your hook! :D

the problem is not enough resourses to effectively enforce the regs in place. the answer is not to add more regs that can not be enforced either. we as anglers need to police ourselves and each other. if i see someone blatently snagging, i will say something. i won't go as far as breaking their rods or cussing them out or threatening bodily harm, but something like: " that probobaly isn't the best thing for you to be doing" or "do you know that is against the law?" if they tell me to go f myself, i will! they obviously don't care and have no ethics and no matter what you say or do will change that.

bottom line is the ffo zones are a joke. you have 50 guys lining the bank of a 50 yard stretch of river. personally i think pineville up should be ffo and c&r all season.

as far as line strength. usually go with 10# flourocarbon and never less than 8#.

**sorry this was meant to be a reply to stackmend's post. it might make a little more sense if you know that!!**

[Fish-N-Chip]

Two anglers are using the same exact fly fishing set-up. Line, leader, fly etc.
The only difference is one of the anglers has weight attached to his leader and the other doesn't.

One of them is fly fishing and the other isn't? Nitpicking bs. Especially if a fly fishing traditionalist thinks that a sink tip or a sinking line is fine. Weight on leader vs sinking line = same sh$# different smell.

It's not the weight that's the problem, it's how the weight is being used that is the problem. Sinking and sink tip line was being used this year to snag/line Salmon almost as much as weight/splitshot.

It's not the Fly Zone Regs or River Regs that are the problem, it is the person behind the rod and their view/perception of what fishing or fly fishing is/isn't.

Ever hear the saying guns don't kill people, people kill people? Weight and and hooks don't snag fish, people snag fish.

A good friend of mine fishes egg sacs with a small splitshot almost religously for steelhead. Is using egg sacs traditional/barbaric? Depends on your view, but I've never seen him keep a fish (he doesn't think keeping fish is wrong), snag, or treat the river, or it's fish abusively. His personal morals and code of ethics dictate his actions on the stream. Will his morals and code of ethics work for me or you? Probably not, but we see eye to eye when it comes to the big picture. Nobody wants less, or smaller fish, or polluted water. Limit regulations on the river and lake, and closing portions of the river during spawning season will help dramatically if enforced. If there aren't enough profesionals to enforce the regs, it makes it tough on everybody.

Thinking that a no weight reg. in the fly zones or other additonal tackle regs will make the FFZ's more traditional or that it will reduce snagging, or that fish won't be dragged below the bridge is wrong. If it is to be traditional in a fly fishing sense, anglers who wish to enter the "holy water" must make their own rod out of bamboo or a similar natural material, make their own silk line, make their own horse hair leaders, gut eyed flies, no wading, etc.. Furthermore, if traditional is taken to the nth degree, it would include using the tactics that the people native to the region had used before we even came to this land. Fishing rods, no matter what type wouldn't be used!!

Time to tie some flies and drink a few coldies.

Enjoy the weekend and the playoffs,
Chip

[gottum]

FC- good points to each his own right? That's why we live in the good old USA. I think this is a useful debate- weight/no weight. I feel flyfishing should give the advantage to the fish especially in a C&R area. This would at least reduce the mortality rate for a "C&R" zone. Growing up flyfishing with nymphs/wet flies I was taught with sinking forward line no added wieght except lead wrapped on the hook before you tied your fly. I just don't see the "fly" in the fishing with weight. To me you may as well call it conventional flyfishing. Which is perfectly OK if people except it for what it is.
Oh where's Bob Green to help me out on this one?
Also it's the same arguement over the 4ft. leader law. It's not the leader snagging it's the guys fishing it. So why did they make such a law?

[metalslayer]

The prob I have with more regs is that the ones already in place aren't enforced.They were giving tickets for 4'6" leaders last year but the circus in town continued.1-2-3 rip 1-2-3 rip.

[bigredfishing]

you guys are making a big deal about using weight in the fly zones...dont forget about the DEC's darling fran verdlova and his running line chuck and duck technique - which is pretty damn effective

[woolybugger65]

wow, F & C. you are 100% on the money. way to go

[stackmend]

Metalslayer
While the 1 2 3 rip rumba goes on it is because it is the intent to snag that has to be proven. Even though they changed the law to allow DEC personal to ticket for repeated exagerated jerking it still comes down to intent and proving what is in someones mind is impossible. But when it comes to 4ft it is a measurable distance and therefore can be enforced, you just need a tape.

FnC
As to it being the person not the rod doing the lifting nothing could be truer but if you fish with a floating line and no weight it is harder to run your line under a fish with hook on one side and the weight on the other, the essence of lifting. Of course people will try to lift anyway but the harder you make it the less they will do it since the whole idea is to hook up the fastest easiest means possible.

[psac]

Screw that s%^&hole LFZ. As Cray would say "They should pave it over!!!" As Big Red will explain, there are three factors in controlling a fishery. 1) Manage the people using the fishery. 2) Manage the fish in the Fishery and finally 3) Manage the environment surrounding the Fishery.

Call me crazy, but it seems to me that although there are some fundamental problems on the Salmon RIver, the fish only spend a small portion of their life in the actual stream. They don't get as big as they do, eatin' sacks and bugs. I think part of the problem is the carrying capacity of the lake itself. For example, the main food sources of our salmonids in Lake O are smelt and alewives. Alewives are a stange fish because their population can vary drastically from year to year. If there is a decline in food, the fish don't grow and some will die. Survival of the fittest. Also, lets not forget our buddy the zebra mussel. These little bastards are starting the whole food chain off in a bad way and decreasing the abundance of the bait fish.

Sorry for the rant, I haven't used my fisheries degree in a few years, and maybe a little off. My long winded point is, all we keep talking about is managing the people of the resource (the easiest of the three) and not examinining the other parts that are causing the decline of steelhead. Money should be spent in managing all three components, not just one.

Paul Saccente
psaccente@veridium.com

[9 wt]

Good point.

I also think that a weighted fly is the same thing as adding weight. So is sinking line. A snagger will just adjust.
I still believe more enforcement is the answer. You can make all the rules you want but if nobody is around to enforce them, people will break them. We've got a small town close to us that is know for it's speed traps. Everyone bitc*es about it but noboby speeds. If a guy thinks the person fishing next to them may have a pad and paper then you won't see the 1-2-3 stuff.

[bobgreen]

sorry it took me so long shane, i was on the farmington last night after work catching a killer caddis hatch...love those warm, wet winter days.. the water looked like it was boiling...

anyways, this is really an interesting thread. i understand and agree with some points that both shane and chip have made. if the "big picture" is river and fishery health, then i think a conscientious angler is all that really matters.

that said, coming from someone who likes to fish long casts with multiple mends purposely avoiding lead to get the most natural drifts possible, i'm going to have to agree with shane on the C & D theory. might as well be using a spinning rod..

again, to each his own, and if that "works" for you, then go for it....i'm not one to even begin to attempt to preach, but if you've ever caught a fresh SR coho on a home-made, marabou spey fly fished on a down and across swing with a sink tip and a "greased" leader, you probably know exactly what i'm talking about. to me...."traditional" fly fishing means fishing dries.......and i've heard that in the spring the dropbacks will come up for a well-presented hendrickson, but i've yet to see it. you can bet they're already tied and in my vest though....